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It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to t
by abpavel 11y ago
It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature, and that officials representing EU states only have access to the full text of 600 pages for 2 hours every thursday, accompanied by two security guards beside you at all times, behind closed doors, after the metal detector where you have leave all your electronics and recording devices behind. Oh, and you're not allowed to take any notes, not even with a pencil. Good luck with booking a slot! If another representative is interested in reading a couple more pages this week, you'll need to wait till next week.
- sandbags 11y agoWhat is really puzzling me is how the procedure for this got approved, and by whom. Who is telling MP's and MEP's that they have to follow these rules? And how are they bound by them?
- iMerNibor 11y agoThe guys pushing ttip i guess They're probably allowed to do it however they please, after all they wrote the document and are free to "license" it however they want What puzzles me is that TTIP is even in consideration anymore with these measures and all the secret keeping in place. If it truly were that good for us WHY on earth would you take these measures?
- Integer 11y agoShort answer: Two-level game theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-level_game_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-level_game_theory
- AnAfrican 11y ago"coordination" is the argument for secrecy. As there will be single-issue opponents in each of the parties, any multi-parties negotiation will fail if it happens in public.
- hollander 11y agoThey should send someone in who has a photographic memory. In two hours he/she can browse those 600 pages, and later someone else can type them out. And this may all be done for a good hourly fee.
- theoh 11y agoI'm skeptical about the existence of that kind of photographic memory.
- dcvuob 11y agoIt's rare but it does exist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Peek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Peek
- mcv 11y agoYou'd have to find an MP with that same ability.
- logfromblammo 11y agoWhile it is unlikely that a natural eidetic currently serves in parliament, memory is something that can be trained and improved. So you take a willing MP, teach them about mnemonics, memory palaces, chunking, and list-ordering narratives, and you could likely smuggle out a few dozen pages every week.
- fnordfnordfnord 11y agoI've had two students in six years who could perfectly reproduce the information on a textbook page after one look at it, even if they had no understanding of the material.
- pbhjpbhj 11y agoThey should pass an emergency law that requires all documents containing suggested content for national legislation be published in full, made available to the public via government websites (or national equivalents). Wording not published could not be included in any legislation. Anything short of that makes a mockery of the idea that we have any sort of democracy. A democracy where the demos aren't allowed to read the treaties before they are ratified, what a ridiculous perversion of a notion that is. Of course the politicians involved could instead come out and say "this is how it is, we don't care about democracy; we're in charge and you can all put up with what we say". At least then you could respect their honesty. Having to spy on people to discover details of legislation proposed for your own country, that's a dictatorship.
- reacweb 11y agoThis kind of procedure is clearly there to fight democracy. I think the TTIP should not be adopted whatever its content, just because of this non democratic procedure. The people who have initiate this procedure should be investigated. Maybe a law should be adopted to punish these nasty people.
- chrisseaton 11y ago> Maybe a law should be adopted to punish these nasty people. I don't think you should punish people with ex post facto laws, and in many countries you can't.
- JupiterMoon 11y agoTTIP may violate some of the principles behind our democracies. Laws already exist to cover for example treason...
- pdkl95 11y agoThere may already be a law on the books in some countries. Regarding the US, these treaties will probably effect more harm to the protections and government as defined by the Constitution than any army. So at what point does that count as "levying war"? Or are we going to pretend that "war" doesn't include economic weapons? (I suspect this might be easier in other countries, that use a less restrictive definition of treason)
- chrisseaton 11y agoDo you genuinely think it would be reasonable, just and workable to extend the definition of war to drafting a proposed trade agreement that you don't like?
- JupiterMoon 11y agoThis is more than a agreement to not levy tariffs on each others trade. Since it includes a loss of sovereignty for the US government it should be directly incompatible with the US constitution..
- germanier 11y agoJust to make one thing clear: Before the treaty comes into force it needs to be voted on by the Euroepan parliament and national parliaments. Before the votes the treaty will be published. What is a highly guarded secret are the current drafts, not the final agreement. It's actually not really different from how most laws are written, especially those proposed by the government. While those are in the drafting phase MPs usally don't have access at all.
- themartorana 11y agoThat doesn't make me feel any better. This treaty and the debate around it have become very public, and continuing to deal in private where even lawmakers are restricted from seeing it can be absolutely nothing other than trying to avoid controversy and public debate. By the time this is in its final form, many countries (like the US) would have basically already voted for approval, meaning a public debate will be too late and all but meaningless.
- TheLogothete 11y agoYeah. Make them public. Every populist party in every member state would have a wonderful time catering to tin foil hats and making everyone with half a clue miserable. This is not how negotiations work. You don't make preliminary talks public. Many of the things in those talks are outrageous and no one believes they will be in the final draft. It's how you negotiate. You ask for X, then the opposing side tells you no, BUT if you manage to do Y, then we can do a scaled back version of X. You tell them no, BUT if they do X and Z, you will make Y happen. All sides make concessions and sh... stuff gets done. Making the above process public will tie the negotiators hands.
- sdoering 11y agoWhy not. If I can argue as a leading party, that my populous would never consent to this or that feature of the treaty, I gain enormous leverage. And seen another way. If any majority of people inside a democracy does not want to have a feature it is the politicians job to listen to the people and do their bidding. Politicians are there to server the people not to rule them.
- emodendroket 11y agoYeah, the prospect of the loss of national sovereignty must be terrifying for EU members.
- ronjouch 11y agoI was wondering whether this was a joke/exaggeration. Turns out it's not: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/surreal_world_of_the_ttip/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/02/10/surreal_world_of_the... Thanks for bringing our attention on this.
- pmarreck 11y agoHow can that be seen as reasonable in any way, shape, or form?
- zeveb 11y ago> It's especially frightening for us Europeans, that TTIP can overrule existing local legislature That should be nothing new, since the EU has been doing that for ages. Just ask the Britons who would prefer to continue using their traditional measures instead of French measures. Just ask those European states whose people would prefer to retain capital punishment.
- neffy 11y agoLet me just speak on behalf of all English schoolchildren educated after that blessed year 1971 when decimalisation was introduced. Oh thank God that we don't have to use those bloody traditional measures any more. Best, idea, ever! Have you any idea what it's like to try and do base 12 and base 16 calculations when you're 10? Without a calculator?? Presumably there's some alternate universe out there where the British Empire still rules the globe, and the world was forced to convert to imperial - in that universe you have a legitimate complaint. Not in this one.
- coldtea 11y agoHis point is valid (people should be governed in the way that the want, not as some body millions of miles away from the decides), but the examples are the worst ever.
- bitwize 11y ago.... in a basement, in a bathroom, past a sign that says "beware of the leopard".
- mason240 11y agoWhat's frightening is the amount of ignorant fearmongering on issue. It's embarrassing that even this site has succumbed to it.