7 ms·

Between this, Kubernetes, Marathon, Amazon's container service, the tooling is overwhelming. I really have no clue how it all fits together and what a complete

Between this, Kubernetes, Marathon, Amazon's container service, the tooling is overwhelming. I really have no clue how it all fits together and what a complete setup looks like (dev -> testing/CI -> prod). I'm using Docker for development, but that's where it ends for me.

thenobsta 11y ago
Amen, it's a landgrab right now.
ArmandGrillet 11y ago
I've written a report about it for a class last month and it may help you have a better understanding of Swarm/Kubernetes/Marathon: http://armand.gr/static/files/htise.pdf http://armand.gr/static/files/htise.pdf
- sciurus 11y ago
  Nice writeup. You might consider creating an HTML version for people who are cautious about opening PDFs.
  - enobrev 11y ago
    I generally Prefer HTML over PDF, especially on mobile, but I'm genuinely curious as to why someone would be cautious about opening PDFs.
    - Nadya 11y ago
      PDF's have been known to have exploits and IIRC how mobile treats downloaded pages (HTML) in a web sandbox, IIRC PDF's need to be downloaded to the device to view. Resulting it being a larger security risk than a web page: See this for some known exploits: http://www.malwaretracker.com/pdfthreat.php http://www.malwaretracker.com/pdfthreat.php
    - tlrobinson 11y ago
      In the past there have been numerous vulnerabilities in PDF rendering software.
    - roflc0ptic 11y ago
      Just a little bit of meta discussion: HN is generally good about this, but at the time I'm writing this, this comment is greyed out. It's a reasonable question that I might have asked 5 years ago. They're not bringing down the level of discourse, they just didn't know something that is common knowledge. I feel like software people, if anyone, should be sympathetic towards people with holes in their knowledge, because we are confronted daily with how large the gulf is between our intellects and memories, and the extant complexity of the world we live in.
      - abrookewood 11y ago
        Well said.
- bliti 11y ago
  Read the report and it was worth my time. Good reading for any systems person. Thanks for posting it. Suggestion: Please include a license if one was not (did not notice). Publish an HTML version.
  - moderation 11y ago
    Not quite HTML but in browser - https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Farmand.gr%2Fstatic%2Ffiles%2Fhtise.pdf https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Farmand.gr%2F...
    - bliti 11y ago
      Very nice option. Thank you for posting it. :)
  - nindalf 11y ago
    Not sure if this is helpful, but Firefox uses the pdf.js extension to open pdfs within the browser. Perhaps other browsers have extensions based on pdf.js?
  - ArmandGrillet 11y ago
    I was in a rush when I posted my first comment, here is a Medium version following your two suggestions: https://medium.com/@ArmandGrillet/comparison-of-container-schedulers-c427f4f7421 https://medium.com/@ArmandGrillet/comparison-of-container-sc...
    - bliti 11y ago
      Wonderful, thanks. :)
  - mattlong 11y ago
    Here's an HTML version: https://view-api.box.com/1/sessions/447725e92f374f59b49dd5c46d35127b/view https://view-api.box.com/1/sessions/447725e92f374f59b49dd5c4...
conradev 11y ago
I somehow stumbled onto Kubernetes, it met all of my needs for a complete setup, and now I'm sticking to it. I really enjoy using it. Before that happened, I felt the exact same way. I still do. Docker, HashiCorp, CoreOS, Google and Amazon are all fighting for control, some building on the work of others, some developing their own solutions, some targeting different markets, some targeting the same market. It's incredibly messy, confusing and yet also somehow supposed to make my life easier.
- pramodliv1 11y ago
  And what's their business model going to be like? Freemium as in Nginx Plus? Pay for monitoring? Support and Consulting?
  - caleblloyd 11y ago
    Kubernetes is pay for hosting in the case of Google Container Engine, and pay for hosting + support in case of RedHat OpenShift Origin (which leverages Kubernetes). Docker Datacenter appears to be pay for support based off their pricing page at https://www.docker.com/pricing https://www.docker.com/pricing (which just says call for quote basically).
    - wstrange 11y ago
      To clarify: Kubernetes is an open source project that runs on everything from bare metal, VMs, cloud (AWS, GCE, ...) and container as a service (GKE) i.e. You can pay money to have someone run it for you (GKE), or you can roll your own.
  - conradev 11y ago
    Kubernetes is an open source project sponsored by Google. Google offers hosted Kubernetes for the cost of the servers and calls it Google Container Engine. It makes their Cloud Platform more attractive. Ideally, the dependence on Google goes down over time. CoreOS maintains and builds kube-aws[1]. [1] https://coreos.com/kubernetes/docs/latest/kubernetes-on-aws.html https://coreos.com/kubernetes/docs/latest/kubernetes-on-aws....
atom_enger 11y ago
There's also a lot of thrash in this space right now. If you don't have the time or don't want to be a trail blazer use Boring Technology ™ until someone else figures it out for you. Perfectly acceptable approach, imo.
cdnsteve 11y ago
I just managed to get docker-compose setup for our local environments. So far so good but so much more to learn.
olalonde 11y ago
Those are too low level for most users and you'll eventually end up (poorly) re-inventing a PaaS if you need things like configuration, authorisation, scaling, routing, rollbacks, etc. I've found Deis (https://github.com/deis/deis https://github.com/deis/deis) to hit the sweet spot between flexibility and convenience. It is built on top of docker and Kubernetes (CoreOS/fleet in v1), and lets you deploy docker containers natively and/or automatically builds those for you using Heroku buildpacks or Dockerfiles when doing git push deployments. You can also drop down to the Kubernetes level if you need to for things that don't really fit the 12-factor app model without breaking Deis. That being said, I'm totally biased as I wrote an Heroku-like UI for it (http://deisdash.com/about http://deisdash.com/about) and using it for our infrastructure at work. Other similar alternatives are http://pivotal.io/platform http://pivotal.io/platform, https://flynn.io/ https://flynn.io/, https://www.openshift.com/ https://www.openshift.com/, https://github.com/dokku/dokku https://github.com/dokku/dokku (for single server), etc.
- pramodliv1 11y ago
  Deis looks amazing! In my current project, I'm running stateful/backing services like Redis, PostgreSQL outside containers. Is that the way to go with Deis as well?
  - snuxoll 11y ago
    Anything involving state doesn't belong in a container. Personally, I don't think containers are worth investing the mental overhead until the security story is resolved - but if you insist on using them don't use them to store your data.
    - lobster_johnson 11y ago
      There's absolutely nothing special about containers and state. A container is just a namespaced process tree. What resources (CPU, memory, network, disk) is has access to is up to you; there's nothing in the Docker design that means state needs to die just because the process dies. All the major container technologies (Kubernetes, Marathon, Amazon's ECS etc.) support data persistence via mounted volumes. Docker's security concerns are mostly about multitenant systems where you're hosting other people's containers. If all your own apps are your own, then Docker is certainly a step up, securitywise, from running an app as a process running as its own Unix user. You just shouldn't assume that a container is perfectly isolated.
jonesb6 11y ago
Competition is great until you find yourself standing in the middle of a bazaar with no clue what the fuck is going on, how you got there, or where you're going to go next.

thenobsta 11y ago

Amen, it's a landgrab right now.

ArmandGrillet 11y ago

I've written a report about it for a class last month and it may help you have a better understanding of Swarm/Kubernetes/Marathon: http://armand.gr/static/files/htise.pdf http://armand.gr/static/files/htise.pdf

sciurus 11y ago
Nice writeup. You might consider creating an HTML version for people who are cautious about opening PDFs.
- enobrev 11y ago
  I generally Prefer HTML over PDF, especially on mobile, but I'm genuinely curious as to why someone would be cautious about opening PDFs.
  - Nadya 11y ago
    PDF's have been known to have exploits and IIRC how mobile treats downloaded pages (HTML) in a web sandbox, IIRC PDF's need to be downloaded to the device to view. Resulting it being a larger security risk than a web page: See this for some known exploits: http://www.malwaretracker.com/pdfthreat.php http://www.malwaretracker.com/pdfthreat.php
  - tlrobinson 11y ago
    In the past there have been numerous vulnerabilities in PDF rendering software.
  - roflc0ptic 11y ago
    Just a little bit of meta discussion: HN is generally good about this, but at the time I'm writing this, this comment is greyed out. It's a reasonable question that I might have asked 5 years ago. They're not bringing down the level of discourse, they just didn't know something that is common knowledge. I feel like software people, if anyone, should be sympathetic towards people with holes in their knowledge, because we are confronted daily with how large the gulf is between our intellects and memories, and the extant complexity of the world we live in.
    - abrookewood 11y ago
      Well said.
bliti 11y ago
Read the report and it was worth my time. Good reading for any systems person. Thanks for posting it. Suggestion: Please include a license if one was not (did not notice). Publish an HTML version.
- moderation 11y ago
  Not quite HTML but in browser - https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Farmand.gr%2Fstatic%2Ffiles%2Fhtise.pdf https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Farmand.gr%2F...
  - bliti 11y ago
    Very nice option. Thank you for posting it. :)
- nindalf 11y ago
  Not sure if this is helpful, but Firefox uses the pdf.js extension to open pdfs within the browser. Perhaps other browsers have extensions based on pdf.js?
- ArmandGrillet 11y ago
  I was in a rush when I posted my first comment, here is a Medium version following your two suggestions: https://medium.com/@ArmandGrillet/comparison-of-container-schedulers-c427f4f7421 https://medium.com/@ArmandGrillet/comparison-of-container-sc...
  - bliti 11y ago
    Wonderful, thanks. :)
- mattlong 11y ago
  Here's an HTML version: https://view-api.box.com/1/sessions/447725e92f374f59b49dd5c46d35127b/view https://view-api.box.com/1/sessions/447725e92f374f59b49dd5c4...

conradev 11y ago

I somehow stumbled onto Kubernetes, it met all of my needs for a complete setup, and now I'm sticking to it. I really enjoy using it. Before that happened, I felt the exact same way. I still do. Docker, HashiCorp, CoreOS, Google and Amazon are all fighting for control, some building on the work of others, some developing their own solutions, some targeting different markets, some targeting the same market. It's incredibly messy, confusing and yet also somehow supposed to make my life easier.

pramodliv1 11y ago
And what's their business model going to be like? Freemium as in Nginx Plus? Pay for monitoring? Support and Consulting?
- caleblloyd 11y ago
  Kubernetes is pay for hosting in the case of Google Container Engine, and pay for hosting + support in case of RedHat OpenShift Origin (which leverages Kubernetes). Docker Datacenter appears to be pay for support based off their pricing page at https://www.docker.com/pricing https://www.docker.com/pricing (which just says call for quote basically).
  - wstrange 11y ago
    To clarify: Kubernetes is an open source project that runs on everything from bare metal, VMs, cloud (AWS, GCE, ...) and container as a service (GKE) i.e. You can pay money to have someone run it for you (GKE), or you can roll your own.
- conradev 11y ago
  Kubernetes is an open source project sponsored by Google. Google offers hosted Kubernetes for the cost of the servers and calls it Google Container Engine. It makes their Cloud Platform more attractive. Ideally, the dependence on Google goes down over time. CoreOS maintains and builds kube-aws[1]. [1] https://coreos.com/kubernetes/docs/latest/kubernetes-on-aws.html https://coreos.com/kubernetes/docs/latest/kubernetes-on-aws....

atom_enger 11y ago

There's also a lot of thrash in this space right now. If you don't have the time or don't want to be a trail blazer use Boring Technology ™ until someone else figures it out for you. Perfectly acceptable approach, imo.

cdnsteve 11y ago

I just managed to get docker-compose setup for our local environments. So far so good but so much more to learn.

olalonde 11y ago

Those are too low level for most users and you'll eventually end up (poorly) re-inventing a PaaS if you need things like configuration, authorisation, scaling, routing, rollbacks, etc. I've found Deis (https://github.com/deis/deis https://github.com/deis/deis) to hit the sweet spot between flexibility and convenience. It is built on top of docker and Kubernetes (CoreOS/fleet in v1), and lets you deploy docker containers natively and/or automatically builds those for you using Heroku buildpacks or Dockerfiles when doing git push deployments. You can also drop down to the Kubernetes level if you need to for things that don't really fit the 12-factor app model without breaking Deis. That being said, I'm totally biased as I wrote an Heroku-like UI for it (http://deisdash.com/about http://deisdash.com/about) and using it for our infrastructure at work. Other similar alternatives are http://pivotal.io/platform http://pivotal.io/platform, https://flynn.io/ https://flynn.io/, https://www.openshift.com/ https://www.openshift.com/, https://github.com/dokku/dokku https://github.com/dokku/dokku (for single server), etc.

pramodliv1 11y ago
Deis looks amazing! In my current project, I'm running stateful/backing services like Redis, PostgreSQL outside containers. Is that the way to go with Deis as well?
- snuxoll 11y ago
  Anything involving state doesn't belong in a container. Personally, I don't think containers are worth investing the mental overhead until the security story is resolved - but if you insist on using them don't use them to store your data.
  - lobster_johnson 11y ago
    There's absolutely nothing special about containers and state. A container is just a namespaced process tree. What resources (CPU, memory, network, disk) is has access to is up to you; there's nothing in the Docker design that means state needs to die just because the process dies. All the major container technologies (Kubernetes, Marathon, Amazon's ECS etc.) support data persistence via mounted volumes. Docker's security concerns are mostly about multitenant systems where you're hosting other people's containers. If all your own apps are your own, then Docker is certainly a step up, securitywise, from running an app as a process running as its own Unix user. You just shouldn't assume that a container is perfectly isolated.

jonesb6 11y ago

Competition is great until you find yourself standing in the middle of a bazaar with no clue what the fuck is going on, how you got there, or where you're going to go next.