9 ms·

Docker Datacenter – develop and manage apps at any scale

mohoff 11y ago
Is it basically an UI, the newest Registry iteration, authentication and Docker's Swarm - as a service?
- amouat 11y ago
  It's not a service as I would think of it. You download and install it on-premise as far as I understand. I know they call it "CaaS", but I guess they are comparing it to using other PaaS's that can be installed on-premise, such as Cloud Foundry. Personally I find the term confusing, as I'm not sure who the consumer of the service is meant to be (developers creating containers? ops who get a platform for running them?)
ahallock 11y ago
Between this, Kubernetes, Marathon, Amazon's container service, the tooling is overwhelming. I really have no clue how it all fits together and what a complete setup looks like (dev -> testing/CI -> prod). I'm using Docker for development, but that's where it ends for me.
- thenobsta 11y ago
  Amen, it's a landgrab right now.
- ArmandGrillet 11y ago
  I've written a report about it for a class last month and it may help you have a better understanding of Swarm/Kubernetes/Marathon: http://armand.gr/static/files/htise.pdf http://armand.gr/static/files/htise.pdf
  - sciurus 11y ago
    Nice writeup. You might consider creating an HTML version for people who are cautious about opening PDFs.
    - enobrev 11y ago
      I generally Prefer HTML over PDF, especially on mobile, but I'm genuinely curious as to why someone would be cautious about opening PDFs.
      - Nadya 11y ago
        PDF's have been known to have exploits and IIRC how mobile treats downloaded pages (HTML) in a web sandbox, IIRC PDF's need to be downloaded to the device to view. Resulting it being a larger security risk than a web page: See this for some known exploits: http://www.malwaretracker.com/pdfthreat.php http://www.malwaretracker.com/pdfthreat.php
      - tlrobinson 11y ago
        In the past there have been numerous vulnerabilities in PDF rendering software.
      - roflc0ptic 11y ago
        Just a little bit of meta discussion: HN is generally good about this, but at the time I'm writing this, this comment is greyed out. It's a reasonable question that I might have asked 5 years ago. They're not bringing down the level of discourse, they just didn't know something that is common knowledge. I feel like software people, if anyone, should be sympathetic towards people with holes in their knowledge, because we are confronted daily with how large the gulf is between our intellects and memories, and the extant complexity of the world we live in.
        abrookewood 11y ago
        Well said.
  - bliti 11y ago
    Read the report and it was worth my time. Good reading for any systems person. Thanks for posting it. Suggestion: Please include a license if one was not (did not notice). Publish an HTML version.
    - moderation 11y ago
      Not quite HTML but in browser - https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Farmand.gr%2Fstatic%2Ffiles%2Fhtise.pdf https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Farmand.gr%2F...
      - bliti 11y ago
        Very nice option. Thank you for posting it. :)
    - nindalf 11y ago
      Not sure if this is helpful, but Firefox uses the pdf.js extension to open pdfs within the browser. Perhaps other browsers have extensions based on pdf.js?
    - ArmandGrillet 11y ago
      I was in a rush when I posted my first comment, here is a Medium version following your two suggestions: https://medium.com/@ArmandGrillet/comparison-of-container-schedulers-c427f4f7421 https://medium.com/@ArmandGrillet/comparison-of-container-sc...
      - bliti 11y ago
        Wonderful, thanks. :)
    - mattlong 11y ago
      Here's an HTML version: https://view-api.box.com/1/sessions/447725e92f374f59b49dd5c46d35127b/view https://view-api.box.com/1/sessions/447725e92f374f59b49dd5c4...
- conradev 11y ago
  I somehow stumbled onto Kubernetes, it met all of my needs for a complete setup, and now I'm sticking to it. I really enjoy using it. Before that happened, I felt the exact same way. I still do. Docker, HashiCorp, CoreOS, Google and Amazon are all fighting for control, some building on the work of others, some developing their own solutions, some targeting different markets, some targeting the same market. It's incredibly messy, confusing and yet also somehow supposed to make my life easier.
  - pramodliv1 11y ago
    And what's their business model going to be like? Freemium as in Nginx Plus? Pay for monitoring? Support and Consulting?
    - caleblloyd 11y ago
      Kubernetes is pay for hosting in the case of Google Container Engine, and pay for hosting + support in case of RedHat OpenShift Origin (which leverages Kubernetes). Docker Datacenter appears to be pay for support based off their pricing page at https://www.docker.com/pricing https://www.docker.com/pricing (which just says call for quote basically).
      - wstrange 11y ago
        To clarify: Kubernetes is an open source project that runs on everything from bare metal, VMs, cloud (AWS, GCE, ...) and container as a service (GKE) i.e. You can pay money to have someone run it for you (GKE), or you can roll your own.
    - conradev 11y ago
      Kubernetes is an open source project sponsored by Google. Google offers hosted Kubernetes for the cost of the servers and calls it Google Container Engine. It makes their Cloud Platform more attractive. Ideally, the dependence on Google goes down over time. CoreOS maintains and builds kube-aws[1]. [1] https://coreos.com/kubernetes/docs/latest/kubernetes-on-aws.html https://coreos.com/kubernetes/docs/latest/kubernetes-on-aws....
- atom_enger 11y ago
  There's also a lot of thrash in this space right now. If you don't have the time or don't want to be a trail blazer use Boring Technology ™ until someone else figures it out for you. Perfectly acceptable approach, imo.
- cdnsteve 11y ago
  I just managed to get docker-compose setup for our local environments. So far so good but so much more to learn.
- olalonde 11y ago
  Those are too low level for most users and you'll eventually end up (poorly) re-inventing a PaaS if you need things like configuration, authorisation, scaling, routing, rollbacks, etc. I've found Deis (https://github.com/deis/deis https://github.com/deis/deis) to hit the sweet spot between flexibility and convenience. It is built on top of docker and Kubernetes (CoreOS/fleet in v1), and lets you deploy docker containers natively and/or automatically builds those for you using Heroku buildpacks or Dockerfiles when doing git push deployments. You can also drop down to the Kubernetes level if you need to for things that don't really fit the 12-factor app model without breaking Deis. That being said, I'm totally biased as I wrote an Heroku-like UI for it (http://deisdash.com/about http://deisdash.com/about) and using it for our infrastructure at work. Other similar alternatives are http://pivotal.io/platform http://pivotal.io/platform, https://flynn.io/ https://flynn.io/, https://www.openshift.com/ https://www.openshift.com/, https://github.com/dokku/dokku https://github.com/dokku/dokku (for single server), etc.
  - pramodliv1 11y ago
    Deis looks amazing! In my current project, I'm running stateful/backing services like Redis, PostgreSQL outside containers. Is that the way to go with Deis as well?
    - snuxoll 11y ago
      Anything involving state doesn't belong in a container. Personally, I don't think containers are worth investing the mental overhead until the security story is resolved - but if you insist on using them don't use them to store your data.
      - lobster_johnson 11y ago
        There's absolutely nothing special about containers and state. A container is just a namespaced process tree. What resources (CPU, memory, network, disk) is has access to is up to you; there's nothing in the Docker design that means state needs to die just because the process dies. All the major container technologies (Kubernetes, Marathon, Amazon's ECS etc.) support data persistence via mounted volumes. Docker's security concerns are mostly about multitenant systems where you're hosting other people's containers. If all your own apps are your own, then Docker is certainly a step up, securitywise, from running an app as a process running as its own Unix user. You just shouldn't assume that a container is perfectly isolated.
- jonesb6 11y ago
  Competition is great until you find yourself standing in the middle of a bazaar with no clue what the fuck is going on, how you got there, or where you're going to go next.
dang 11y ago
Also https://blog.docker.com/2016/02/docker-datacenter-caas/ https://blog.docker.com/2016/02/docker-datacenter-caas/ (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11158909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11158909).
rodionos 11y ago
According to this intro https://docker.wistia.com/medias/mdseh9gv6v https://docker.wistia.com/medias/mdseh9gv6v, 200 out of 230 people working for Docker Inc are engineers. I like the ratio.
- hnbroseph 11y ago
  they are in a position of luxury, for sure. if a serious contender starts cutting into Docker Corp's pie, they'll have to ramp up the other departments.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    How much runway does Docker Co have for the number of employees on staff?
    - nickstinemates 11y ago
      years
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        I hope you didn't take offense to the question. I recognize Docker's contribution to the containerization landscape, but after doing tech for ~15 years, you see things come and go and you get tired of wasting your time on products or tooling that may or may not be around in 1-3 years.
        Patrick_Devine 11y ago
        Given the Docker engine has been around for a number of years and it's still picking up steam, containers aren't going away anytime soon. That said, Docker Inc. has plenty of cash in the bank.
riquito 11y ago
What's the difference from their own Docker Cloud (ex tutum)?
- ShakataGaNai 11y ago
  Docker Cloud (formerly Tutum) probably only duplicates the control plane aspect of DDC. It's also "in the cloud" versus hosted inside of your own enviroment - which a lot of people with big builds want.
rodionos 11y ago
Docker UCP. What database does it use to store historical container statistics?
SEJeff 11y ago
This is great, but I fear trying to compete directly against software like Kubernetes and Mesos, Docker isn't going to have a ton of luck.
hariharasudhan 11y ago
you should try moblyapp.com, a fabric client. It has answers & custom events too. check it out. #mobly
sajiainikkal 11y ago
In my opinion it require lot of learnings to put Docker Data Center into production and it is still in the early stage. It is a good alternative for companies following everything DIY approach even for creating, deploying and managing containers. But for enterprises who really care about applications and looking for simple, steady and mature option for container based platform cloud foundry is a good alternative. It is more structured and matured platform compared to Docker+Kubernetes as well as Docker+Docker Data Center+UCP combination.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

Is it basically an UI, the newest Registry iteration, authentication and Docker's Swarm - as a service?

amouat 11y ago
It's not a service as I would think of it. You download and install it on-premise as far as I understand. I know they call it "CaaS", but I guess they are comparing it to using other PaaS's that can be installed on-premise, such as Cloud Foundry. Personally I find the term confusing, as I'm not sure who the consumer of the service is meant to be (developers creating containers? ops who get a platform for running them?)

Between this, Kubernetes, Marathon, Amazon's container service, the tooling is overwhelming. I really have no clue how it all fits together and what a complete setup looks like (dev -> testing/CI -> prod). I'm using Docker for development, but that's where it ends for me.

thenobsta 11y ago
Amen, it's a landgrab right now.
ArmandGrillet 11y ago
I've written a report about it for a class last month and it may help you have a better understanding of Swarm/Kubernetes/Marathon: http://armand.gr/static/files/htise.pdf http://armand.gr/static/files/htise.pdf
- sciurus 11y ago
  Nice writeup. You might consider creating an HTML version for people who are cautious about opening PDFs.
  - enobrev 11y ago
    I generally Prefer HTML over PDF, especially on mobile, but I'm genuinely curious as to why someone would be cautious about opening PDFs.
    - Nadya 11y ago
      PDF's have been known to have exploits and IIRC how mobile treats downloaded pages (HTML) in a web sandbox, IIRC PDF's need to be downloaded to the device to view. Resulting it being a larger security risk than a web page: See this for some known exploits: http://www.malwaretracker.com/pdfthreat.php http://www.malwaretracker.com/pdfthreat.php
    - tlrobinson 11y ago
      In the past there have been numerous vulnerabilities in PDF rendering software.
    - roflc0ptic 11y ago
      Just a little bit of meta discussion: HN is generally good about this, but at the time I'm writing this, this comment is greyed out. It's a reasonable question that I might have asked 5 years ago. They're not bringing down the level of discourse, they just didn't know something that is common knowledge. I feel like software people, if anyone, should be sympathetic towards people with holes in their knowledge, because we are confronted daily with how large the gulf is between our intellects and memories, and the extant complexity of the world we live in.
      - abrookewood 11y ago
        Well said.
- bliti 11y ago
  Read the report and it was worth my time. Good reading for any systems person. Thanks for posting it. Suggestion: Please include a license if one was not (did not notice). Publish an HTML version.
  - moderation 11y ago
    Not quite HTML but in browser - https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Farmand.gr%2Fstatic%2Ffiles%2Fhtise.pdf https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Farmand.gr%2F...
    - bliti 11y ago
      Very nice option. Thank you for posting it. :)
  - nindalf 11y ago
    Not sure if this is helpful, but Firefox uses the pdf.js extension to open pdfs within the browser. Perhaps other browsers have extensions based on pdf.js?
  - ArmandGrillet 11y ago
    I was in a rush when I posted my first comment, here is a Medium version following your two suggestions: https://medium.com/@ArmandGrillet/comparison-of-container-schedulers-c427f4f7421 https://medium.com/@ArmandGrillet/comparison-of-container-sc...
    - bliti 11y ago
      Wonderful, thanks. :)
  - mattlong 11y ago
    Here's an HTML version: https://view-api.box.com/1/sessions/447725e92f374f59b49dd5c46d35127b/view https://view-api.box.com/1/sessions/447725e92f374f59b49dd5c4...
conradev 11y ago
I somehow stumbled onto Kubernetes, it met all of my needs for a complete setup, and now I'm sticking to it. I really enjoy using it. Before that happened, I felt the exact same way. I still do. Docker, HashiCorp, CoreOS, Google and Amazon are all fighting for control, some building on the work of others, some developing their own solutions, some targeting different markets, some targeting the same market. It's incredibly messy, confusing and yet also somehow supposed to make my life easier.
- pramodliv1 11y ago
  And what's their business model going to be like? Freemium as in Nginx Plus? Pay for monitoring? Support and Consulting?
  - caleblloyd 11y ago
    Kubernetes is pay for hosting in the case of Google Container Engine, and pay for hosting + support in case of RedHat OpenShift Origin (which leverages Kubernetes). Docker Datacenter appears to be pay for support based off their pricing page at https://www.docker.com/pricing https://www.docker.com/pricing (which just says call for quote basically).
    - wstrange 11y ago
      To clarify: Kubernetes is an open source project that runs on everything from bare metal, VMs, cloud (AWS, GCE, ...) and container as a service (GKE) i.e. You can pay money to have someone run it for you (GKE), or you can roll your own.
  - conradev 11y ago
    Kubernetes is an open source project sponsored by Google. Google offers hosted Kubernetes for the cost of the servers and calls it Google Container Engine. It makes their Cloud Platform more attractive. Ideally, the dependence on Google goes down over time. CoreOS maintains and builds kube-aws[1]. [1] https://coreos.com/kubernetes/docs/latest/kubernetes-on-aws.html https://coreos.com/kubernetes/docs/latest/kubernetes-on-aws....
atom_enger 11y ago
There's also a lot of thrash in this space right now. If you don't have the time or don't want to be a trail blazer use Boring Technology ™ until someone else figures it out for you. Perfectly acceptable approach, imo.
cdnsteve 11y ago
I just managed to get docker-compose setup for our local environments. So far so good but so much more to learn.
olalonde 11y ago
Those are too low level for most users and you'll eventually end up (poorly) re-inventing a PaaS if you need things like configuration, authorisation, scaling, routing, rollbacks, etc. I've found Deis (https://github.com/deis/deis https://github.com/deis/deis) to hit the sweet spot between flexibility and convenience. It is built on top of docker and Kubernetes (CoreOS/fleet in v1), and lets you deploy docker containers natively and/or automatically builds those for you using Heroku buildpacks or Dockerfiles when doing git push deployments. You can also drop down to the Kubernetes level if you need to for things that don't really fit the 12-factor app model without breaking Deis. That being said, I'm totally biased as I wrote an Heroku-like UI for it (http://deisdash.com/about http://deisdash.com/about) and using it for our infrastructure at work. Other similar alternatives are http://pivotal.io/platform http://pivotal.io/platform, https://flynn.io/ https://flynn.io/, https://www.openshift.com/ https://www.openshift.com/, https://github.com/dokku/dokku https://github.com/dokku/dokku (for single server), etc.
- pramodliv1 11y ago
  Deis looks amazing! In my current project, I'm running stateful/backing services like Redis, PostgreSQL outside containers. Is that the way to go with Deis as well?
  - snuxoll 11y ago
    Anything involving state doesn't belong in a container. Personally, I don't think containers are worth investing the mental overhead until the security story is resolved - but if you insist on using them don't use them to store your data.
    - lobster_johnson 11y ago
      There's absolutely nothing special about containers and state. A container is just a namespaced process tree. What resources (CPU, memory, network, disk) is has access to is up to you; there's nothing in the Docker design that means state needs to die just because the process dies. All the major container technologies (Kubernetes, Marathon, Amazon's ECS etc.) support data persistence via mounted volumes. Docker's security concerns are mostly about multitenant systems where you're hosting other people's containers. If all your own apps are your own, then Docker is certainly a step up, securitywise, from running an app as a process running as its own Unix user. You just shouldn't assume that a container is perfectly isolated.
jonesb6 11y ago
Competition is great until you find yourself standing in the middle of a bazaar with no clue what the fuck is going on, how you got there, or where you're going to go next.

dang 11y ago

Also https://blog.docker.com/2016/02/docker-datacenter-caas/ https://blog.docker.com/2016/02/docker-datacenter-caas/ (via https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11158909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11158909).

rodionos 11y ago

According to this intro https://docker.wistia.com/medias/mdseh9gv6v https://docker.wistia.com/medias/mdseh9gv6v, 200 out of 230 people working for Docker Inc are engineers. I like the ratio.

hnbroseph 11y ago
they are in a position of luxury, for sure. if a serious contender starts cutting into Docker Corp's pie, they'll have to ramp up the other departments.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  How much runway does Docker Co have for the number of employees on staff?
  - nickstinemates 11y ago
    years
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      I hope you didn't take offense to the question. I recognize Docker's contribution to the containerization landscape, but after doing tech for ~15 years, you see things come and go and you get tired of wasting your time on products or tooling that may or may not be around in 1-3 years.
      - Patrick_Devine 11y ago
        Given the Docker engine has been around for a number of years and it's still picking up steam, containers aren't going away anytime soon. That said, Docker Inc. has plenty of cash in the bank.

riquito 11y ago

What's the difference from their own Docker Cloud (ex tutum)?

ShakataGaNai 11y ago
Docker Cloud (formerly Tutum) probably only duplicates the control plane aspect of DDC. It's also "in the cloud" versus hosted inside of your own enviroment - which a lot of people with big builds want.

rodionos 11y ago

Docker UCP. What database does it use to store historical container statistics?

SEJeff 11y ago

This is great, but I fear trying to compete directly against software like Kubernetes and Mesos, Docker isn't going to have a ton of luck.

hariharasudhan 11y ago

you should try moblyapp.com, a fabric client. It has answers & custom events too. check it out. #mobly

sajiainikkal 11y ago

In my opinion it require lot of learnings to put Docker Data Center into production and it is still in the early stage. It is a good alternative for companies following everything DIY approach even for creating, deploying and managing containers. But for enterprises who really care about applications and looking for simple, steady and mature option for container based platform cloud foundry is a good alternative. It is more structured and matured platform compared to Docker+Kubernetes as well as Docker+Docker Data Center+UCP combination.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]