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A few years ago, my patellar tendon was getting sore from running, and I went to a sports medicine specialist. At that first visit, he did an ultrasound scan o

by tacon 11y ago

A few years ago, my patellar tendon was getting sore from running, and I went to a sports medicine specialist. At that first visit, he did an ultrasound scan over the length of my patellar tendons, and it was very discouraging to see these "black" sections in the mid-core of my tendons. They were actually tissue that was a bit disrupted, but the way it scattered the sound, it appeared as "black". Kind of freaked me out that my tendon was "dead" in the middle. The actual diagnosis was patellar tendinopathy, previously referred to as patellar tendinitis, or "jumper's knee". He gave me exercises to build up my tendons, mainly eccentric resistance exercise, but it was going to take a long time. I wondered how I could monitor the progress of the healing. The doctor visit and scan was at least $200/visit, and the healing could take a year. On AliBaba, I checked how much a low end machine would cost to use at home. There were all sorts of machines available, and one manufacturer's rep latched onto me. I still get the occasional email checking if I'm ready to buy. I think these machines may require some doctor's approval, too, but I never went that far. But they sure don't cost anything like the prices in this article. In 2013, for quantity 1, IIRC, I was quoted $1100/each for this SUN-806F laptop plus sensor plus software unit: http://www.cnsunbright.com/china/english/newshow.asp?Cid=108&sid=149&PID=135 http://www.cnsunbright.com/china/english/newshow.asp?Cid=108... Maybe I'm missing something critical in this price difference? As the OP was explaining, you can almost build one yourself.

acqq 11y ago
So it was 3300 USD total for the solution? And the interesting detail, in the article that the author links there is this opinion from the doctor who uses the portable ultrasound device: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/05/pocket-ultrasound-machine.html http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/05/pocket-ultrasound-machin... "Other doctors often ask me if I bill for my exams. I don’t, because billing and the detailed documentation and posturing that would be necessary to prove to an insurance company that an ultrasound was necessary would take more time than I have." The rest of the article is also insightful.
grahar64 11y ago
OP/author here, I also have patella tendinitis since I dislocated my patella when I was 17. This is the reason I started looking at ultrasounds, I figured that I could buy one for the $160 cost to get a scan from a doctor. I have looked around for a cheap ultrasound, but $1100 is far cheaper than I was able to find (I got to about $3k but looked like a dodgy dealer so didn't link to it). But 1k is still way more expensive than I think it should be. It should be a sensor you just plug into and iphone for a few hundred. I mean there is the http://www.thermal.com/thermal-cameras/ http://www.thermal.com/thermal-cameras/ thermal camera for only $250, why not ultrasound? Making a photo sensor must be thousands of times more complicated than ultrasounds sensors. I just want to know why I can't buy one cheaper than my massively more complex iphone :)
- sithadmin 11y ago
  >Making a photo sensor must be thousands of times more complicated than ultrasounds sensors. Cheaper thermal imaging sensors like that usually use a very, very low resolution sensor for picking up thermal data, then use interpolation to map the low-resolution data onto a high-resolution image provided by a higher-res conventional camera sensor. Obviously, this approach won't work with ultrasound tech, as there wouldn't be a secondary high-resolution data source.
  - grahar64 11y ago
    In the post there is a link to a paper where someone used a 40x40 array for 3d ultrasound imaging and there is a 64x array at 35MHz used for high resolution imaging of things like eyes. That is pretty low resolution for such interesting applications. Imagine the applications for a high resolution 3D ultrasound scanner combined with a high-resolution camera.
    - gene-h 11y ago
      It might be helpful to elaborate on what applications a 3d ultrasound scanner would have.
    - conceit 11y ago
      A 40x40 ultrasound array can scan with a much better resolution, look at prenatal imaging for example. The phased array is modulated in the time and space domains, so one cell can substitute many fixed ones. With the speed of sound, the receivers resolution of depth information extracted from a reflection's timing information would be a million times better. ...
      - conceit 11y ago
        I'm not sure I would understand my own description, let me go again: The transducer sends a modulated signal and receives the reflections. From the time difference information is gained. The signal is steered using beamforming as known from radar technology. This creates many different impulses that can be correlated from the received reflections. The key is that the 1600 sells deliver more than one input over time, from a nonstatic signal, which is like shooting photos from different perspectives. I believe cell correlation or whatchamacallit is done in all kinds of variation for CCD data, too.
bduhan 11y ago
A few months ago I almost ended up with a functional one from a local maternity ward for less than $100 on publicsurplus.com. I didn't realize the thing weighed =~ 400lbs until after bidding on it. Thankfully somebody else got the auction at the last minute.

by tacon 11y ago

acqq 11y ago

So it was 3300 USD total for the solution? And the interesting detail, in the article that the author links there is this opinion from the doctor who uses the portable ultrasound device: http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/05/pocket-ultrasound-machine.html http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/05/pocket-ultrasound-machin... "Other doctors often ask me if I bill for my exams. I don’t, because billing and the detailed documentation and posturing that would be necessary to prove to an insurance company that an ultrasound was necessary would take more time than I have." The rest of the article is also insightful.

grahar64 11y ago

OP/author here, I also have patella tendinitis since I dislocated my patella when I was 17. This is the reason I started looking at ultrasounds, I figured that I could buy one for the $160 cost to get a scan from a doctor. I have looked around for a cheap ultrasound, but $1100 is far cheaper than I was able to find (I got to about $3k but looked like a dodgy dealer so didn't link to it). But 1k is still way more expensive than I think it should be. It should be a sensor you just plug into and iphone for a few hundred. I mean there is the http://www.thermal.com/thermal-cameras/ http://www.thermal.com/thermal-cameras/ thermal camera for only $250, why not ultrasound? Making a photo sensor must be thousands of times more complicated than ultrasounds sensors. I just want to know why I can't buy one cheaper than my massively more complex iphone :)

sithadmin 11y ago
>Making a photo sensor must be thousands of times more complicated than ultrasounds sensors. Cheaper thermal imaging sensors like that usually use a very, very low resolution sensor for picking up thermal data, then use interpolation to map the low-resolution data onto a high-resolution image provided by a higher-res conventional camera sensor. Obviously, this approach won't work with ultrasound tech, as there wouldn't be a secondary high-resolution data source.
- grahar64 11y ago
  In the post there is a link to a paper where someone used a 40x40 array for 3d ultrasound imaging and there is a 64x array at 35MHz used for high resolution imaging of things like eyes. That is pretty low resolution for such interesting applications. Imagine the applications for a high resolution 3D ultrasound scanner combined with a high-resolution camera.
  - gene-h 11y ago
    It might be helpful to elaborate on what applications a 3d ultrasound scanner would have.
  - conceit 11y ago
    A 40x40 ultrasound array can scan with a much better resolution, look at prenatal imaging for example. The phased array is modulated in the time and space domains, so one cell can substitute many fixed ones. With the speed of sound, the receivers resolution of depth information extracted from a reflection's timing information would be a million times better. ...
    - conceit 11y ago
      I'm not sure I would understand my own description, let me go again: The transducer sends a modulated signal and receives the reflections. From the time difference information is gained. The signal is steered using beamforming as known from radar technology. This creates many different impulses that can be correlated from the received reflections. The key is that the 1600 sells deliver more than one input over time, from a nonstatic signal, which is like shooting photos from different perspectives. I believe cell correlation or whatchamacallit is done in all kinds of variation for CCD data, too.

bduhan 11y ago

A few months ago I almost ended up with a functional one from a local maternity ward for less than $100 on publicsurplus.com. I didn't realize the thing weighed =~ 400lbs until after bidding on it. Thankfully somebody else got the auction at the last minute.