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Also reported by Reuters: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VS2GC http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VS2GC Some are saying the password reset re

Also reported by Reuters: http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VS2GC http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0VS2GC Some are saying the password reset requested by the FBI prevented a backup and closed the "front door" they already had, forcing the Apple backdoor. The simplest possible explanation for them shutting themselves out has to be incompetence rather than malice, right?

cinquemb 11y ago
Sure simplest, but lets not pretend the fbi (or some people within) doesn't have a history of doing sketchy shit and if it were malice it wouldn't be the first time and i doubt it would even be the last if such were the case, you know humans and all lol
- a3n 11y ago
  The FBI sent a letter to Martin Luther King suggesting that he kill himself. So yeah, the FBI does have a history of sketchy shit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO#History
sehugg 11y ago
Wired reports: "...the company’s engineers had first suggested to the government that it take the phone to the suspect’s apartment to connect it to the Wi-FI there. But since reporters and members of the public had swarmed that crime scene shortly after the shootings occurred, it was likely that any Wi-Fi there had been disconnected" [1] [1] http://www.wired.com/2016/02/apple-says-the-government-bungled-its-chance-to-hack-that-iphone/ http://www.wired.com/2016/02/apple-says-the-government-bungl...
- tlrobinson 11y ago
  So plug it back in...?
  - tehalex 11y ago
    Actually, iOS devices do not automatically connect to wifi until they are unlocked for the first time after a reboot - I'm not sure about the cellular networks.
    - sneak 11y ago
      They do connect to cellular networks, but will not do an automatic iCloud Backup unless they are a) on wifi and b) connected to power, so this method would not have worked.
  - everly 11y ago
    Seems like that part is just bad reporting. I presume they mean the Comcast (or whatever provider it is) account is no longer active, not that a router has been simply unplugged (annoyingly, the average user/journalist doesn't understand the relationship between a copper connection, modem, and router/WiFi and that hasn't been helped by Comcast bundling them as a single device). It would still be relatively trivial to restore the connection so it's not a valid reason for requiring the backdoor, but I think that was the writer's intent. Also, even if they didn't restore the broadband at the guy's apartment, couldn't they just take the router and plug it in back at the station, since the login credentials have already been established? Even the mention of the reporters swarming the apartment highlights the absurdity of the FBI's logic. How can they justify needing to scour every last digital crevice when they couldn't even be bothered to secure and scour the physical space they had access to?
    - singlow 11y ago
      But if it is just the access point they need, go get it and connect it to a network connection that is working.
      - everly 11y ago
        That's exactly what I said in the comment that you replied to: "Also, even if they didn't restore the broadband at the guy's apartment, couldn't they just take the router and plug it in back at the station, since the login credentials have already been established?" However, the sibling comment below my original asserts that iOS won't re-connect to WiFi after booting until the pin has been entered (and thus no backup will occur). If that's true, and if the phone had been powered down at any point, then retrieving the router isn't a viable solution anyway.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- sschueller 11y ago
  This is like the icing in the cake! If it turns out the FBI's incompetence to secure the apartment prevented them from reconnecting the iPhone to the wifi in order to get a fresh backup off of it.
  - Houshalter 11y ago
    Isn't securing the scene the job of the local police? How far away was the nearest FBI office?
    - ryanlol 11y ago
      11.3 mi via I-215 N
- ryao 11y ago
  Am I the only one concerned that an iCloud backup translating into information disclosure is a major security weakness in Apple's platform? Also, since Apple remembers old iCloud passwords to prevent reuse for a year, what stops them from setting it to the original value in their database? Even if there were information lost in their database when the password changed, surely they have backups, right?
  - camillomiller 11y ago
    I don't think they can do that
  - GhotiFish 11y ago
    backups I can see being a problem. Though just because you can prevent people from using duplicate passwords doesn't mean you can reset it to that password. Just use a hash.
sigmar 11y ago
But even if it was incompetence, the February 19th Motion to Compel they stated that the owner of the phone tried to reset the password. Which seems a bit disingenuous if the FBI told them to do it. PDF of the motion to compel (Page 18, footnote 7): http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Apple-iPhone-access-MOTION-TO-COMPEL.pdf http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Apple-iPhone...
- randomname2 11y ago
  So the county and the FBI are blaming each other? Or is this the FBI carefully parsing words by saying the owner of the phone (i.e. the attacker's employer) tried to reset the password, without mentioning that said reset was done at the FBI's request?
  - jlgaddis 11y ago
    ... and without mentioning that it was, apparently, successful. Let's not let the details get in the way.
digikata 11y ago
If it is malice - the order for Apple to help should be reversed. If it is incompetence then that bolsters the argument that any backdoor will lead to leaks and unauthorized access to the backdoor, causing more harm to everyone.
- a3n 11y ago
  We fucked up the front door, but we totally won't fuck up the back door.
  - WalterSear 11y ago
    And we can totally be trusted not to share your house keys with anyone.
    - a3n 11y ago
      Indeed. The best way to not have information stolen is to not have it, and particularly not have with someone proven to be incapable of security. http://www.softwar.net/stupid.html http://www.softwar.net/stupid.html EDIT: add after the comma.
  - Cartwright2 11y ago
    > We fucked up the front door, but we totally won't fuck up the back door. This is the most apt summary of this whole situation. I expect to see a family-friendly version of this phrase in the media over the coming days.
- rhino369 11y ago
  >If it is incompetence then that bolsters the argument that any backdoor will lead to leaks and unauthorized access to the backdoor, causing more harm to everyone. The backdoor the FBI wants to exploit cannot be leaked. They are specifically requesting it be limited to the specific phone. If it were possible to take an apple update, edit it, and then apply to other phones, they wouldn't need Apple's help.
  - 11y ago
stepanhruda 11y ago
We are too incompetent to use the front door. Can you make a back door for us? We for sure won't messing anything up when working with it, what makes you think so?
pmarreck 11y ago
FBI? Definitely incompetence. One of us should help them out. ;)
- ryao 11y ago
  Am I the only one surprised an Internet meme claiming FBI stands for "Full Blown Incompetence" has not started?
jessaustin 11y ago
The simplest possible explanation for them shutting themselves out has to be incompetence rather than malice, right? I don't know why so many people feel better about incompetence than they do about malice. Malicious parties can at least be expected to act in their own interests, even if in reprehensible fashion. Incompetent parties might do anything at all, e.g. permanently damaging our communications infrastructure for a chance at short-term political advantage.

cinquemb 11y ago

Sure simplest, but lets not pretend the fbi (or some people within) doesn't have a history of doing sketchy shit and if it were malice it wouldn't be the first time and i doubt it would even be the last if such were the case, you know humans and all lol

a3n 11y ago
The FBI sent a letter to Martin Luther King suggesting that he kill himself. So yeah, the FBI does have a history of sketchy shit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO#History

sehugg 11y ago

Wired reports: "...the company’s engineers had first suggested to the government that it take the phone to the suspect’s apartment to connect it to the Wi-FI there. But since reporters and members of the public had swarmed that crime scene shortly after the shootings occurred, it was likely that any Wi-Fi there had been disconnected" [1] [1] http://www.wired.com/2016/02/apple-says-the-government-bungled-its-chance-to-hack-that-iphone/ http://www.wired.com/2016/02/apple-says-the-government-bungl...

tlrobinson 11y ago
So plug it back in...?
- tehalex 11y ago
  Actually, iOS devices do not automatically connect to wifi until they are unlocked for the first time after a reboot - I'm not sure about the cellular networks.
  - sneak 11y ago
    They do connect to cellular networks, but will not do an automatic iCloud Backup unless they are a) on wifi and b) connected to power, so this method would not have worked.
- everly 11y ago
  Seems like that part is just bad reporting. I presume they mean the Comcast (or whatever provider it is) account is no longer active, not that a router has been simply unplugged (annoyingly, the average user/journalist doesn't understand the relationship between a copper connection, modem, and router/WiFi and that hasn't been helped by Comcast bundling them as a single device). It would still be relatively trivial to restore the connection so it's not a valid reason for requiring the backdoor, but I think that was the writer's intent. Also, even if they didn't restore the broadband at the guy's apartment, couldn't they just take the router and plug it in back at the station, since the login credentials have already been established? Even the mention of the reporters swarming the apartment highlights the absurdity of the FBI's logic. How can they justify needing to scour every last digital crevice when they couldn't even be bothered to secure and scour the physical space they had access to?
  - singlow 11y ago
    But if it is just the access point they need, go get it and connect it to a network connection that is working.
    - everly 11y ago
      That's exactly what I said in the comment that you replied to: "Also, even if they didn't restore the broadband at the guy's apartment, couldn't they just take the router and plug it in back at the station, since the login credentials have already been established?" However, the sibling comment below my original asserts that iOS won't re-connect to WiFi after booting until the pin has been entered (and thus no backup will occur). If that's true, and if the phone had been powered down at any point, then retrieving the router isn't a viable solution anyway.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
sschueller 11y ago
This is like the icing in the cake! If it turns out the FBI's incompetence to secure the apartment prevented them from reconnecting the iPhone to the wifi in order to get a fresh backup off of it.
- Houshalter 11y ago
  Isn't securing the scene the job of the local police? How far away was the nearest FBI office?
  - ryanlol 11y ago
    11.3 mi via I-215 N
ryao 11y ago
Am I the only one concerned that an iCloud backup translating into information disclosure is a major security weakness in Apple's platform? Also, since Apple remembers old iCloud passwords to prevent reuse for a year, what stops them from setting it to the original value in their database? Even if there were information lost in their database when the password changed, surely they have backups, right?
- camillomiller 11y ago
  I don't think they can do that
- GhotiFish 11y ago
  backups I can see being a problem. Though just because you can prevent people from using duplicate passwords doesn't mean you can reset it to that password. Just use a hash.

sigmar 11y ago

But even if it was incompetence, the February 19th Motion to Compel they stated that the owner of the phone tried to reset the password. Which seems a bit disingenuous if the FBI told them to do it. PDF of the motion to compel (Page 18, footnote 7): http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Apple-iPhone-access-MOTION-TO-COMPEL.pdf http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Apple-iPhone...

randomname2 11y ago
So the county and the FBI are blaming each other? Or is this the FBI carefully parsing words by saying the owner of the phone (i.e. the attacker's employer) tried to reset the password, without mentioning that said reset was done at the FBI's request?
- jlgaddis 11y ago
  ... and without mentioning that it was, apparently, successful. Let's not let the details get in the way.

digikata 11y ago

If it is malice - the order for Apple to help should be reversed. If it is incompetence then that bolsters the argument that any backdoor will lead to leaks and unauthorized access to the backdoor, causing more harm to everyone.

a3n 11y ago
We fucked up the front door, but we totally won't fuck up the back door.
- WalterSear 11y ago
  And we can totally be trusted not to share your house keys with anyone.
  - a3n 11y ago
    Indeed. The best way to not have information stolen is to not have it, and particularly not have with someone proven to be incapable of security. http://www.softwar.net/stupid.html http://www.softwar.net/stupid.html EDIT: add after the comma.
- Cartwright2 11y ago
  > We fucked up the front door, but we totally won't fuck up the back door. This is the most apt summary of this whole situation. I expect to see a family-friendly version of this phrase in the media over the coming days.
rhino369 11y ago
>If it is incompetence then that bolsters the argument that any backdoor will lead to leaks and unauthorized access to the backdoor, causing more harm to everyone. The backdoor the FBI wants to exploit cannot be leaked. They are specifically requesting it be limited to the specific phone. If it were possible to take an apple update, edit it, and then apply to other phones, they wouldn't need Apple's help.
- 11y ago

stepanhruda 11y ago

We are too incompetent to use the front door. Can you make a back door for us? We for sure won't messing anything up when working with it, what makes you think so?

pmarreck 11y ago

FBI? Definitely incompetence. One of us should help them out. ;)

ryao 11y ago
Am I the only one surprised an Internet meme claiming FBI stands for "Full Blown Incompetence" has not started?

jessaustin 11y ago

The simplest possible explanation for them shutting themselves out has to be incompetence rather than malice, right? I don't know why so many people feel better about incompetence than they do about malice. Malicious parties can at least be expected to act in their own interests, even if in reprehensible fashion. Incompetent parties might do anything at all, e.g. permanently damaging our communications infrastructure for a chance at short-term political advantage.