9 ms·

I'm afraid this is a fight Uber won't win. I just can't see the Chinese internet giants letting an American company dominate this space. Call me jaded, but the

by drchiu 11y ago

I'm afraid this is a fight Uber won't win. I just can't see the Chinese internet giants letting an American company dominate this space. Call me jaded, but the world isn't so black and white, and I'm sure in the end Uber will concede to defeat after realizing their biggest competitor aren't playing by the same rules.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> Call me jaded, but the world isn't so black and white, and I'm sure in the end Uber will concede to defeat after realizing their biggest competitor aren't playing by the same rules. Call me a jaded person, but Uber shall have learned a lesson. When they break the law, its distrupty, when someone else does it, its "unfair".
- icebraining 11y ago
  I don't see them calling it unfair. Obviously they don't like it, but that's not the same.
jfoster 11y ago
That would seem to be the default outcome, based on experiences of other American companies in China. It still makes sense for Uber to fight for their place in China, though. The opportunity is too big to just concede defeat. Uber are also probably a bit more street smart than the other American internet companies that have previously failed to establish their place in China.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  American tech companies didn't fail to dominate China because of naïveté, they failed because the Chinese Communist Party refuses to let any global tech company establish a sizable foothold when they can create their own Chinese version, especially when the Chinese version helps cement the Great Firewall and control the populace. This is not a contemporary trend, this is the consistent history of China. Baidu over Google; Alibaba over Amazon; Renren over Facebook and Twitter (both blocked in China). Only exception is Apple, but they mostly sell products instead of info (and is fashionable among the Chinese elite). But then, there's always Xiaomi...
  - goodcjw2 11y ago
    I do agree Google and FB is largely harmed by the great firewall from the every beginning, they don't even have a chance to compete. But Uber is not really blocked in China at all. They worked really actively with their government and even throw in a DC in China. Yes, Uber's competitor is fierce, but they made it work. Unlike the fact that China still cannot make a smart phone as good as iPhone, or cannot make their own OS like windows, that's they Apple and MS thrived.
    - anon8418 11y ago
      > But Uber is not really blocked in China at all. They worked really actively with their government and even throw in a DC in China. Uber is not blocked, for now. That can change in a whim. The Chinese government can simply create regulations that apply to them that do not apply to their local competitors. This has happened many times before in the past.... >Unlike the fact that China still cannot make a smart phone as good as iPhone, or cannot make their own OS like windows, that's they Apple and MS thrived. While the Chinese did not design the iPhone to say that they "cannot make a smart phone as good" is completely false. For one, the iPhone is largely manufactured in China and has been for a few generations now. Second, some of the best iphone competitors / android devices are being made by Chinese companies.
      - somebehemoth 11y ago
        >Second, some of the best iphone competitors / android devices are being made by Chinese companies. Such as? Even if true they are running non-chinese OS software... Making the iPhone in China means they could make iPhones, not necessarily that they can design and build their own full stack phone without "borrowing" heavily from foreign cpetitors.
        anon8418 11y ago
        > Such as? Even if true they are running non-chinese OS software... Huawei M8 is nice and well made. > Making the iPhone in China means they could make iPhones, not necessarily that they can design and build their own full stack phone without "borrowing" heavily from foreign cpetitors. I generally agree with this, but you may be underestimating how quickly others can catch up in this globalized world. Plus the blueprint has been well established by the other big Asian tech companies. Look at how quickly Samsung "caught up".
- barkingcat 11y ago
  The opportunity is only as big as the Chinese government will allow. If Uber didn't learn that lesson it soon will, and it will have cost them $1 Billion+ The Chinese market was also big for Google, but once the government makes a decision, that "market" will either infect you (ie obligate you to follow Chinese government rules when it comes to your operations outside of China as well) or make you re-evaluate why you want to be in China at all. Google pulled out. The market isn't as big as people think because it's not actually a market.
  - jfoster 11y ago
    Indeed; it all hinges whether they can get the government to accept them. I have a feeling Uber won't be quite as idealistic or principled as Google were.
  - mehrdada 11y ago
    > because it's not actually a market It is a market. Just not a free market.
rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
It's not jaded, it's an accurate understanding of China's historically mercantile attitude. I cannot for the life of me think of a single foreign product or company operating in China that China hasn't copied for their own version (or ripped off, like the fake Apple stores). The only exceptions are culture companies, where the brand matters more than the product (Pizza Hut; McDonalds; Starbucks).
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- austinsharp 11y ago
  The NBA is hugely popular in China, but that probably fits more with your 'culture companies'.
  - rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
    Precisely. When dealing with a mercantilist market-state, the only advantage you have is to be unique and irreplaceable. China could spend billions at the drop of a hat to create their own Chinese Basketball League, but one cannot mandate a LeBron James.
    - sehr 11y ago
      They are essentially doing that right now with soccer interestingly enough
    - dluan 11y ago
      Not necessarily true, just look at soccer in China in the past two weeks. Just buy all the Lebron's until you figure out the template and can mass produce it.
      - jdminhbg 11y ago
        The CSL isn't buying the Lebrons of soccer, though. Edit to add: And there's more to a successful and interesting league than recognizable players; moreso in soccer than basketball (and even moreso in American football).
JumpCrisscross 11y ago
> I just can't see the Chinese internet giants letting an American company dominate this space Letting an American company know who in your country is travelling where and meeting with whom for how long would be a risky national-security move even without the FBI and pals advertising their bulldog mentality.
- SilasX 11y ago
  Heck, it's a national security issue for Uber to have info about what American politicians went where and when: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8682132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8682132
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I would relish that data being dumped by someone.
- mahyarm 11y ago
  Uber runs on cellphone GPS alone. The gov't has full access to cell phone location records for everyone who touches their cell network, with unique serial numbers. They don't need uber or anyone else for a subset of their location records.
  - joelwilliamson 11y ago
    The argument isn't that the government needs Uber to be able to track their citizens, but that Uber being a major player allows the American government to track Chinese citizens.
free2rhyme214 11y ago
Uber already knows this. That's why they've partnered with Baidu and raised $2B from Chinese investors recently. You really think Travis is going to lose in China? This isn't Google China in 2009. Travis partnered with the crazy guy who got Google kicked out of China. I won't speculate that Uber will be dominate in China but there's no way they're going away anytime soon. Reference to Li (CEO of Baidu), expiring Google in China - https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Google-blocked-in-China https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Google-blocked-in-China
- esturk 11y ago
  Yes they can partner with Baidu but at the end of the day, its all about whether the CCP have Uber on a leash. If the CCP can force Walmart to capitulate and accept unions then I'm sure Uber will capitulate as well and change their core values or possibly even control and influence to the CCP via a board member. I agree that Uber isn't going to lose outright with how they intend to fight in China and I'm actually excited to see how much Uber will change to become CCP acceptable. If Uber wants to win, it will have to sacrifice a lot more than just money.
- jonknee 11y ago
  > You really think Travis is going to lose in China? This isn't Google China in 2009. Travis partnered with the crazy guy who got Google kicked out of China. Yea, probably. He's done pretty well in most markets, but China isn't most markets.
- anon8418 11y ago
  > You really think Travis is going to lose in China? This isn't Google China in 2009. Travis partnered with the crazy guy who got Google kicked out of China. You really think the Chinese government is going to hand over the country's taxi market to a foreign led/managed/owned company? LOL The fact that you are comparing Travis to the CCP in the same sentence is laughable, as if he has some magical power that will allow him to defy papa Xi in his own country! China is merely allowing Uber to experiment and establish the concept of ride-sharing in China. Once that happens they will steamroll them over using every trick in the book, including ironically, lots of regulation!
reviseddamage 11y ago
you're not suggesting that China is Uber's Battle of Waterloo, are you?
Camillo 11y ago
So, uh, what was the point of the whole WTO thing again?
- paganel 11y ago
  Economic colonialism, i.e. the old boys imposing their will on the new boys, that's it. Case in point, that UAE company which was not allowed to purchase the management contract for some ports in the USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Ports_World_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Ports_World_controversy), the US air business market that only allows American-owned companies, or any big acquisition involving Chinese money on American soil, which automatically creates a "strategic/national defense" discussion.

by drchiu 11y ago

toomuchtodo 11y ago

> Call me jaded, but the world isn't so black and white, and I'm sure in the end Uber will concede to defeat after realizing their biggest competitor aren't playing by the same rules. Call me a jaded person, but Uber shall have learned a lesson. When they break the law, its distrupty, when someone else does it, its "unfair".

icebraining 11y ago
I don't see them calling it unfair. Obviously they don't like it, but that's not the same.

jfoster 11y ago

That would seem to be the default outcome, based on experiences of other American companies in China. It still makes sense for Uber to fight for their place in China, though. The opportunity is too big to just concede defeat. Uber are also probably a bit more street smart than the other American internet companies that have previously failed to establish their place in China.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
American tech companies didn't fail to dominate China because of naïveté, they failed because the Chinese Communist Party refuses to let any global tech company establish a sizable foothold when they can create their own Chinese version, especially when the Chinese version helps cement the Great Firewall and control the populace. This is not a contemporary trend, this is the consistent history of China. Baidu over Google; Alibaba over Amazon; Renren over Facebook and Twitter (both blocked in China). Only exception is Apple, but they mostly sell products instead of info (and is fashionable among the Chinese elite). But then, there's always Xiaomi...
- goodcjw2 11y ago
  I do agree Google and FB is largely harmed by the great firewall from the every beginning, they don't even have a chance to compete. But Uber is not really blocked in China at all. They worked really actively with their government and even throw in a DC in China. Yes, Uber's competitor is fierce, but they made it work. Unlike the fact that China still cannot make a smart phone as good as iPhone, or cannot make their own OS like windows, that's they Apple and MS thrived.
  - anon8418 11y ago
    > But Uber is not really blocked in China at all. They worked really actively with their government and even throw in a DC in China. Uber is not blocked, for now. That can change in a whim. The Chinese government can simply create regulations that apply to them that do not apply to their local competitors. This has happened many times before in the past.... >Unlike the fact that China still cannot make a smart phone as good as iPhone, or cannot make their own OS like windows, that's they Apple and MS thrived. While the Chinese did not design the iPhone to say that they "cannot make a smart phone as good" is completely false. For one, the iPhone is largely manufactured in China and has been for a few generations now. Second, some of the best iphone competitors / android devices are being made by Chinese companies.
    - somebehemoth 11y ago
      >Second, some of the best iphone competitors / android devices are being made by Chinese companies. Such as? Even if true they are running non-chinese OS software... Making the iPhone in China means they could make iPhones, not necessarily that they can design and build their own full stack phone without "borrowing" heavily from foreign cpetitors.
      - anon8418 11y ago
        > Such as? Even if true they are running non-chinese OS software... Huawei M8 is nice and well made. > Making the iPhone in China means they could make iPhones, not necessarily that they can design and build their own full stack phone without "borrowing" heavily from foreign cpetitors. I generally agree with this, but you may be underestimating how quickly others can catch up in this globalized world. Plus the blueprint has been well established by the other big Asian tech companies. Look at how quickly Samsung "caught up".
barkingcat 11y ago
The opportunity is only as big as the Chinese government will allow. If Uber didn't learn that lesson it soon will, and it will have cost them $1 Billion+ The Chinese market was also big for Google, but once the government makes a decision, that "market" will either infect you (ie obligate you to follow Chinese government rules when it comes to your operations outside of China as well) or make you re-evaluate why you want to be in China at all. Google pulled out. The market isn't as big as people think because it's not actually a market.
- jfoster 11y ago
  Indeed; it all hinges whether they can get the government to accept them. I have a feeling Uber won't be quite as idealistic or principled as Google were.
- mehrdada 11y ago
  > because it's not actually a market It is a market. Just not a free market.

rm_-rf_slash 11y ago

It's not jaded, it's an accurate understanding of China's historically mercantile attitude. I cannot for the life of me think of a single foreign product or company operating in China that China hasn't copied for their own version (or ripped off, like the fake Apple stores). The only exceptions are culture companies, where the brand matters more than the product (Pizza Hut; McDonalds; Starbucks).

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
austinsharp 11y ago
The NBA is hugely popular in China, but that probably fits more with your 'culture companies'.
- rm_-rf_slash 11y ago
  Precisely. When dealing with a mercantilist market-state, the only advantage you have is to be unique and irreplaceable. China could spend billions at the drop of a hat to create their own Chinese Basketball League, but one cannot mandate a LeBron James.
  - sehr 11y ago
    They are essentially doing that right now with soccer interestingly enough
  - dluan 11y ago
    Not necessarily true, just look at soccer in China in the past two weeks. Just buy all the Lebron's until you figure out the template and can mass produce it.
    - jdminhbg 11y ago
      The CSL isn't buying the Lebrons of soccer, though. Edit to add: And there's more to a successful and interesting league than recognizable players; moreso in soccer than basketball (and even moreso in American football).

JumpCrisscross 11y ago

> I just can't see the Chinese internet giants letting an American company dominate this space Letting an American company know who in your country is travelling where and meeting with whom for how long would be a risky national-security move even without the FBI and pals advertising their bulldog mentality.

SilasX 11y ago
Heck, it's a national security issue for Uber to have info about what American politicians went where and when: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8682132 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8682132
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  I would relish that data being dumped by someone.
mahyarm 11y ago
Uber runs on cellphone GPS alone. The gov't has full access to cell phone location records for everyone who touches their cell network, with unique serial numbers. They don't need uber or anyone else for a subset of their location records.
- joelwilliamson 11y ago
  The argument isn't that the government needs Uber to be able to track their citizens, but that Uber being a major player allows the American government to track Chinese citizens.

free2rhyme214 11y ago

Uber already knows this. That's why they've partnered with Baidu and raised $2B from Chinese investors recently. You really think Travis is going to lose in China? This isn't Google China in 2009. Travis partnered with the crazy guy who got Google kicked out of China. I won't speculate that Uber will be dominate in China but there's no way they're going away anytime soon. Reference to Li (CEO of Baidu), expiring Google in China - https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Google-blocked-in-China https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Google-blocked-in-China

esturk 11y ago
Yes they can partner with Baidu but at the end of the day, its all about whether the CCP have Uber on a leash. If the CCP can force Walmart to capitulate and accept unions then I'm sure Uber will capitulate as well and change their core values or possibly even control and influence to the CCP via a board member. I agree that Uber isn't going to lose outright with how they intend to fight in China and I'm actually excited to see how much Uber will change to become CCP acceptable. If Uber wants to win, it will have to sacrifice a lot more than just money.
jonknee 11y ago
> You really think Travis is going to lose in China? This isn't Google China in 2009. Travis partnered with the crazy guy who got Google kicked out of China. Yea, probably. He's done pretty well in most markets, but China isn't most markets.
anon8418 11y ago
> You really think Travis is going to lose in China? This isn't Google China in 2009. Travis partnered with the crazy guy who got Google kicked out of China. You really think the Chinese government is going to hand over the country's taxi market to a foreign led/managed/owned company? LOL The fact that you are comparing Travis to the CCP in the same sentence is laughable, as if he has some magical power that will allow him to defy papa Xi in his own country! China is merely allowing Uber to experiment and establish the concept of ride-sharing in China. Once that happens they will steamroll them over using every trick in the book, including ironically, lots of regulation!

reviseddamage 11y ago

you're not suggesting that China is Uber's Battle of Waterloo, are you?

Camillo 11y ago

So, uh, what was the point of the whole WTO thing again?

paganel 11y ago
Economic colonialism, i.e. the old boys imposing their will on the new boys, that's it. Case in point, that UAE company which was not allowed to purchase the management contract for some ports in the USA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Ports_World_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubai_Ports_World_controversy), the US air business market that only allows American-owned companies, or any big acquisition involving Chinese money on American soil, which automatically creates a "strategic/national defense" discussion.