7 ms·

This seems like the right thing to do - disable the unauthorized Touch ID sensor, but don't brick the phone. The secure enclave is still intact and secure, and

This seems like the right thing to do - disable the unauthorized Touch ID sensor, but don't brick the phone. The secure enclave is still intact and secure, and if you want Touch ID back, you can get it repaired with authorized parts.

mtgx 11y ago
Well, apparently the "Secure" Enclave isn't quite that secure, and its firmware can be modified, even remotely: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160218/10371233643/yes-backdoor-that-fbi-is-requesting-can-work-modern-iphones-too.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160218/10371233643/yes-b...
- sp332 11y ago
  It is secure. You can't get the keys out even with modified firmware.
  - kinofcain 11y ago
    But if I can update the firmware to make it easier to brute-force the pin, that's bad. Previously there was speculation that a firmware update to the secure enclave would wipe the contents of the secure enclave. If that's not the case, then the whole design of a simple pin combined with a complex device id to form a secure key is not as strong as was thought. Basically, everyone should now use an alphanumeric password on their phones and not rely on the 10-tries limit or on the exponentially increasing delays.
    - nathancahill 11y ago
      Sounds like you know something the FBI is missing in the San Bernadino case! Definitely shoot them an email about how updating the firmware makes it easier to brute-force the pin.
      - feld 11y ago
        These internet/armchair secure enclave experts are starting to ruin every conversation
        seanp2k2 11y ago
        I trust that comex knows what he's talking about : http://www.ijailbreak.com/developers/ http://www.ijailbreak.com/developers/
        feld 11y ago
        I will require more specific details of the iPhone 5/5C architecture to confirm this is true. Schematics, Apple documents, etc would be nice.
      - gpm 11y ago
        The FBI is currently trying to force Apple to produce the modified firmware he is talking about. I'm not sure why you think he is suggesting he knows more than them.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        Discussion of the Secure Enclave has no bearing on the practicality of the FBI's request. The iPhone the FBI is asking Apple to break into is an older model that doesn't have a Secure Enclave. It's pretty well accepted at this point that Apple is capable of complying with the FBI's request. The big question is whether Apple would be capable of complying with a similar request with a newer iPhone that includes a Secure Enclave.
    - feld 11y ago
      The iPhone 5/5C does not have a secure enclave. That was a feature of the A7 chip in the 5S and newer. This is how it's possible for Apple to modify the phone's firmware without wiping the phone. I suspect that the iPhone 5/5C and older's encryption key was stored on a regular flash chip somewhere. edit: the "firmware" update is an iOS update that removes the software limitation. SOFTWARE LIMITATION. On newer iPhones it's hardware (secure enclave). Yes, you can do an firmware update on an encrypted iPhone. It's not full disk encryption. Only user data is encrypted.
      - comex 11y ago
        This is incorrect - the Secure Enclave is a separate CPU, but the rate limiter is still software, and its firmware can (currently) be updated without erasing keys: http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with...
    - nemothekid 11y ago
      The phone in the San Bernardino case is an iPhone 5C which does not have a Secure Enclave. The Secure Enclave (in the iPhone 5S and iPhone 6) has a hardware enforced rate limiter that cannot be overridden by a firmware update.
      - comex 11y ago
        This is incorrect - the Secure Enclave is a separate CPU, but the rate limiter is still software, and its firmware can (currently) be updated without erasing keys: http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with...
        threeseed 11y ago
        The rate limiter is in software but that doesn't mean the total number of attempts is in software. Or that there isn't a minimum rate set in hardware. All we know is that Apple at some point increased the delay. Doesn't mean they can decrease it.
        sjwright 11y ago
        This article seems to be largely unsubstantiated speculation. I see no evidence that a locked secure enclave can have its firmware updated.
        mikeash 11y ago
        Where is the evidence that the Secure Enclave's software can be updated without erasing keys? The article states: "Apple can update the SE firmware, it does not require the phone passcode, and it does not wipe user data on update." But it does not support this statement in any way. In my experience, it does either require the phone passcode, or it wipes the data. Of course, I have no idea where that requirement is implemented. It would be easy and sensible to have the secure enclave require the passcode for an update to its own firmware, or erase the keys it holds when applying such an update without the passcode. Apple doesn't say they do it from what I can tell, but it would fit with everything else they do, it's pretty easy to do, and I've seen no indication that it doesn't do this.
    - metric10 11y ago
      Assuming you are referring to the San Bernardino case, that is an iPhone 5c which features an A6 series CPU. The Secure Enclave feature was introduced with the A7 [1]. [1] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf (page 5)
      - tlrobinson 11y ago
        The point is, it was speculated that if the phone had a Secure Enclave it would be impossible for Apple to meet the FBI's request, but it appears that even Secure Enclave phones are vulnerable.
        threeseed 11y ago
        > but it appears that even Secure Enclave phones are vulnerable What proof is there of this ? Even reports I've heard from people at the White House believe the newer phones are simply not possible for Apple to compromise.
        metric10 11y ago
        This appears to be true. If you look at Page 5 of [1], there's a side note about DFU mode. There's no indication that updating the firmware wipes the secure contents of the device, which it would need to in order to be secure: """ Entering Device Firmware Upgrade (DFU) mode Restoring a device after it enters DFU mode returns it to known good state with the certainty that only unmodified Apple-signed code is present. DFU mode can be entered manually: First connect the device to a computer using a USB cable, then hold down both the Home and Sleep/Wake buttons. After 8 seconds, release the Sleep/Wake button while continuing to hold down the Home button. Note: Nothing will be displayed on the screen when the device is in DFU mode. If the Apple logo appears, the Sleep/Wake button was held down too long. """ [1] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf
        acdha 11y ago
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - givinguflac 11y ago
      You CANNOT update the firmware on the secure enclave. You don't understand how it works obviously.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- fla 11y ago
  This article answers most technical questions and goes into great details http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with...
  - threeseed 11y ago
    That article is pure speculation and is pretty much worthless. It's claim that the Secure Enclave is comprimisable is based on Apple releasing a firmware update that "increased delays between passcode attempts". From this the author then assumes that Apple then has the ability to "disable passcode delays and auto erase". There is no evidence for this. And there are plenty of other scenarios like their being a hardware minimum attempt delay, auto erase not being possible or the maximum attempt count implemented in hardware.
chinathrow 11y ago
The car industry played the same game a while a go and failed badly. Allow repairs of the device you OWN with parts you decide and not the manufacturer.
- stouset 11y ago
  This is equivalent to allowing any party in control of your device to circumvent its security by installing a fake fingerprint sensor. No thank you.
  - chinathrow 11y ago
    Even if it's fake, it should simply transmit fingerprint data to the CPU and not more. What am I missing here?
    - smileysteve 11y ago
      The possibility of a skimmer or data modifier. Ie, I add a logger to your sensor, get all of your data, then make a sensor that translates my fingerprint to look like your fingerprint (or just always sends your fingerprint)
      - chinathrow 11y ago
        Why the need for a logger/skimmer? Touch ID has been proven to be vulnerable to fingerprint clones for years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM8b8d8kSNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM8b8d8kSNQ Edit: Yes, not broken but also not 100% secure.
        evan_ 11y ago
        Why make it easier?
        chinathrow 11y ago
        It _is_ easy if you have the fingerprint of someone.
rustynails 11y ago
This is not Apple's policy (as they informed me). Once a device has been compromised in any way, they will no longer touch it. If you want it repaired, you either go through a 3rd party repairer or you get it replaced under insurance. Also, Apple don't sell Authorised parts and I could not find anyone that provided genuine OEM parts.
- ericabiz 11y ago
  You are correct that Apple does not sell parts--and thus "genuine OEM parts" do not exist outside of an Apple store. That being said, most highly-rated third-party repair shops use high-quality screens that are pretty much indistinguishable from your original Apple screen. Check reviews and ratings of any third-party store before you get your phone repaired. There are great ones and there are terrible ones, just like with any service business. And if anyone from any store tells you they buy iPhone screens from Apple, or that they do use "genuine OEM parts", now you know--they are lying.
  - commandar 11y ago
    My understanding is that this is more of a software issue: only Apple and authorized service providers are able to pair a particular TouchID sensor with a device.
    - ericabiz 11y ago
      The only "authorized service provider" for iPhone screen and home button issues is the Apple Store. Apple doesn't license or sell parts to anyone else for iPhone screen repairs. If you get your home button repaired by a third party, now, Touch ID simply won't work. Seems reasonable considering home button issues that would require repair are relatively rare--phones with destroyed home buttons are usually in such bad shape that the owner is just glad to get a working phone back, never mind the Touch ID. Apple Stores usually won't work on phones with bent frames, severe water damage, etc. anyway--they'll just try to sell you a new (refurbished) phone. Third party repair stores will attempt the repair and can often fix the phone, resulting in a happy customer who gets a cheaper repair and gets to keep the data on their phone.
rasz_pl 11y ago
Can you ? Apple doesnt repair, they swap. They will most likely give you another refurbished phone.

mtgx 11y ago

Well, apparently the "Secure" Enclave isn't quite that secure, and its firmware can be modified, even remotely: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160218/10371233643/yes-backdoor-that-fbi-is-requesting-can-work-modern-iphones-too.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160218/10371233643/yes-b...

sp332 11y ago
It is secure. You can't get the keys out even with modified firmware.
- kinofcain 11y ago
  But if I can update the firmware to make it easier to brute-force the pin, that's bad. Previously there was speculation that a firmware update to the secure enclave would wipe the contents of the secure enclave. If that's not the case, then the whole design of a simple pin combined with a complex device id to form a secure key is not as strong as was thought. Basically, everyone should now use an alphanumeric password on their phones and not rely on the 10-tries limit or on the exponentially increasing delays.
  - nathancahill 11y ago
    Sounds like you know something the FBI is missing in the San Bernadino case! Definitely shoot them an email about how updating the firmware makes it easier to brute-force the pin.
    - feld 11y ago
      These internet/armchair secure enclave experts are starting to ruin every conversation
      - seanp2k2 11y ago
        I trust that comex knows what he's talking about : http://www.ijailbreak.com/developers/ http://www.ijailbreak.com/developers/
        feld 11y ago
        I will require more specific details of the iPhone 5/5C architecture to confirm this is true. Schematics, Apple documents, etc would be nice.
    - gpm 11y ago
      The FBI is currently trying to force Apple to produce the modified firmware he is talking about. I'm not sure why you think he is suggesting he knows more than them.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Discussion of the Secure Enclave has no bearing on the practicality of the FBI's request. The iPhone the FBI is asking Apple to break into is an older model that doesn't have a Secure Enclave. It's pretty well accepted at this point that Apple is capable of complying with the FBI's request. The big question is whether Apple would be capable of complying with a similar request with a newer iPhone that includes a Secure Enclave.
  - feld 11y ago
    The iPhone 5/5C does not have a secure enclave. That was a feature of the A7 chip in the 5S and newer. This is how it's possible for Apple to modify the phone's firmware without wiping the phone. I suspect that the iPhone 5/5C and older's encryption key was stored on a regular flash chip somewhere. edit: the "firmware" update is an iOS update that removes the software limitation. SOFTWARE LIMITATION. On newer iPhones it's hardware (secure enclave). Yes, you can do an firmware update on an encrypted iPhone. It's not full disk encryption. Only user data is encrypted.
    - comex 11y ago
      This is incorrect - the Secure Enclave is a separate CPU, but the rate limiter is still software, and its firmware can (currently) be updated without erasing keys: http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with...
  - nemothekid 11y ago
    The phone in the San Bernardino case is an iPhone 5C which does not have a Secure Enclave. The Secure Enclave (in the iPhone 5S and iPhone 6) has a hardware enforced rate limiter that cannot be overridden by a firmware update.
    - comex 11y ago
      This is incorrect - the Secure Enclave is a separate CPU, but the rate limiter is still software, and its firmware can (currently) be updated without erasing keys: http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with...
      - threeseed 11y ago
        The rate limiter is in software but that doesn't mean the total number of attempts is in software. Or that there isn't a minimum rate set in hardware. All we know is that Apple at some point increased the delay. Doesn't mean they can decrease it.
      - sjwright 11y ago
        This article seems to be largely unsubstantiated speculation. I see no evidence that a locked secure enclave can have its firmware updated.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        Where is the evidence that the Secure Enclave's software can be updated without erasing keys? The article states: "Apple can update the SE firmware, it does not require the phone passcode, and it does not wipe user data on update." But it does not support this statement in any way. In my experience, it does either require the phone passcode, or it wipes the data. Of course, I have no idea where that requirement is implemented. It would be easy and sensible to have the secure enclave require the passcode for an update to its own firmware, or erase the keys it holds when applying such an update without the passcode. Apple doesn't say they do it from what I can tell, but it would fit with everything else they do, it's pretty easy to do, and I've seen no indication that it doesn't do this.
  - metric10 11y ago
    Assuming you are referring to the San Bernardino case, that is an iPhone 5c which features an A6 series CPU. The Secure Enclave feature was introduced with the A7 [1]. [1] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf (page 5)
    - tlrobinson 11y ago
      The point is, it was speculated that if the phone had a Secure Enclave it would be impossible for Apple to meet the FBI's request, but it appears that even Secure Enclave phones are vulnerable.
      - threeseed 11y ago
        > but it appears that even Secure Enclave phones are vulnerable What proof is there of this ? Even reports I've heard from people at the White House believe the newer phones are simply not possible for Apple to compromise.
        metric10 11y ago
        This appears to be true. If you look at Page 5 of [1], there's a side note about DFU mode. There's no indication that updating the firmware wipes the secure contents of the device, which it would need to in order to be secure: """ Entering Device Firmware Upgrade (DFU) mode Restoring a device after it enters DFU mode returns it to known good state with the certainty that only unmodified Apple-signed code is present. DFU mode can be entered manually: First connect the device to a computer using a USB cable, then hold down both the Home and Sleep/Wake buttons. After 8 seconds, release the Sleep/Wake button while continuing to hold down the Home button. Note: Nothing will be displayed on the screen when the device is in DFU mode. If the Apple logo appears, the Sleep/Wake button was held down too long. """ [1] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf
        acdha 11y ago
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - givinguflac 11y ago
    You CANNOT update the firmware on the secure enclave. You don't understand how it works obviously.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
fla 11y ago
This article answers most technical questions and goes into great details http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ http://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with...
- threeseed 11y ago
  That article is pure speculation and is pretty much worthless. It's claim that the Secure Enclave is comprimisable is based on Apple releasing a firmware update that "increased delays between passcode attempts". From this the author then assumes that Apple then has the ability to "disable passcode delays and auto erase". There is no evidence for this. And there are plenty of other scenarios like their being a hardware minimum attempt delay, auto erase not being possible or the maximum attempt count implemented in hardware.

chinathrow 11y ago

The car industry played the same game a while a go and failed badly. Allow repairs of the device you OWN with parts you decide and not the manufacturer.

stouset 11y ago
This is equivalent to allowing any party in control of your device to circumvent its security by installing a fake fingerprint sensor. No thank you.
- chinathrow 11y ago
  Even if it's fake, it should simply transmit fingerprint data to the CPU and not more. What am I missing here?
  - smileysteve 11y ago
    The possibility of a skimmer or data modifier. Ie, I add a logger to your sensor, get all of your data, then make a sensor that translates my fingerprint to look like your fingerprint (or just always sends your fingerprint)
    - chinathrow 11y ago
      Why the need for a logger/skimmer? Touch ID has been proven to be vulnerable to fingerprint clones for years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM8b8d8kSNQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM8b8d8kSNQ Edit: Yes, not broken but also not 100% secure.
      - evan_ 11y ago
        Why make it easier?
        chinathrow 11y ago
        It _is_ easy if you have the fingerprint of someone.

rustynails 11y ago

This is not Apple's policy (as they informed me). Once a device has been compromised in any way, they will no longer touch it. If you want it repaired, you either go through a 3rd party repairer or you get it replaced under insurance. Also, Apple don't sell Authorised parts and I could not find anyone that provided genuine OEM parts.

ericabiz 11y ago
You are correct that Apple does not sell parts--and thus "genuine OEM parts" do not exist outside of an Apple store. That being said, most highly-rated third-party repair shops use high-quality screens that are pretty much indistinguishable from your original Apple screen. Check reviews and ratings of any third-party store before you get your phone repaired. There are great ones and there are terrible ones, just like with any service business. And if anyone from any store tells you they buy iPhone screens from Apple, or that they do use "genuine OEM parts", now you know--they are lying.
- commandar 11y ago
  My understanding is that this is more of a software issue: only Apple and authorized service providers are able to pair a particular TouchID sensor with a device.
  - ericabiz 11y ago
    The only "authorized service provider" for iPhone screen and home button issues is the Apple Store. Apple doesn't license or sell parts to anyone else for iPhone screen repairs. If you get your home button repaired by a third party, now, Touch ID simply won't work. Seems reasonable considering home button issues that would require repair are relatively rare--phones with destroyed home buttons are usually in such bad shape that the owner is just glad to get a working phone back, never mind the Touch ID. Apple Stores usually won't work on phones with bent frames, severe water damage, etc. anyway--they'll just try to sell you a new (refurbished) phone. Third party repair stores will attempt the repair and can often fix the phone, resulting in a happy customer who gets a cheaper repair and gets to keep the data on their phone.

rasz_pl 11y ago

Can you ? Apple doesnt repair, they swap. They will most likely give you another refurbished phone.