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I've loaded many a homeless into my fire engine to take to the local Crisis Resource Center/ Behaviour Rehabilitation center because they begged and pleaded tha

I've loaded many a homeless into my fire engine to take to the local Crisis Resource Center/ Behaviour Rehabilitation center because they begged and pleaded that they want help. Great! More often than not, we see them a few days later with Steel Reserve cans littered about after someone calls 911 for what appears to them a dead man on the side of the road. Mental illness is brutal. I feel for these guys, especially as I get older and start seeing my age equivalent homeless folks with PTSD and the like. The Vietnam vets are being replaced with Gulf war and Afghanistan vets. It is heart breaking to be sure... especially because many of us have served. We try, again, to hook these guys up with the VA... but they must want the help. It will not work otherwise.

jonknee 11y ago
I wouldn't trust the VA to actually give them the help they need. Navigating a giant bureaucracy is tough for the most sane among us, let alone someone on the ropes.
zepto 11y ago
Wanting help is not the same as being able to be helped. Veterans often have what is called 'treatment resistant PTSD', which is another way of saying that we haven't figured out how to treat them. There is a wealth of material on how even veterans who have supportive families and are housed and in treatment can't always hold down a job. New treatments such as VR based exposure therapy, or MDMA therapy are promising, but the standard of care is currently CBT and/or drugs, which have generally poor outcomes. We just don't know how to treat PTSD in general. This has nothing to do with whether people 'want' help or not.
- monkmartinez 11y ago
  Sure. We do our best with the training we've had to handle the situations we are presented with. I know there are subtleties and nuance, especially with vets. That doesn't change the fact that we have to deal with them now. I'm not minimizing their issues, nor am I saying one-size fits all... but I would be remiss to not say: there are a lot of people dealing with mental/medical problems that are resistant to traditional therapies that don't resort to self-destructive behaviour to cope. To wave off all the choices they make on a day-to-day basis is a disservice them and flies in the face of the people that are dealing with the same issues in non-self-destructive manner.
  - wpietri 11y ago
    If you think addicts are making "choices" in the conventional sense of that term, you haven't quite caught on to the nature of addiction. They no longer have a choice. That's why there are no ex-addicts, just people in recovery. They spend the rest of their lives learning to avoid waking the beast that dwells within them. They very carefully construct lives that keep them away from circumstances where they lose the power of choice. It's not an easy thing. I have friends who have made it so far, and their struggles were enormous. I have friends and family who didn't make it, and they're now dead. And I know plenty of people who just aren't addictive by nature; they made all the same choices and never had a problem at all. I get why people don't like this. We all want to believe in the power of will. In particular, we want to believe that the power of our own will is sufficient to the challenges we face. But sometimes it isn't, and if we accepted that, we'd have fewer homeless addicts.
- knughit 11y ago
  Holding down a job isn't relevant. They did a job for us, we owe them care in the face of the disability that job created.
  - Kristine1975 11y ago
    > They did a job for us Only if we are the Military-Industrial Complex.
yuudu_literal 11y ago
> I've loaded many a homeless into my fire engine Err... why? Were they on fire? Why is the fire department involved in homeless people?
- monknomo 11y ago
  The fire departments in most towns in America provide emergency medical services. 911 calls about health related things often result in a fire truck arriving, rather than an ambulance.
  - chei0aiV 11y ago
    What?
    - monknomo 11y ago
      I don't know what the history is, I'm sure it's complicated. You've got hospital ambulances, private ambulances, city fire departments, county fire departments, volunteer fire departments and federal fire fighting organizations all potentially in the same place, all summonable by a 911 dispatcher. They all have EMT training and gear. Who shows up and how is it decided? Beats me.
      - chei0aiV 11y ago
        Well, as long as whoever shows up has the required experience and equipment to solve the situation, great! I guess the fire fighting orgs have medical equipment and training too? Sometimes human organisation is baffling if you are seeing it from a step further out but makes complete sense when viewed from the inside.

jonknee 11y ago

I wouldn't trust the VA to actually give them the help they need. Navigating a giant bureaucracy is tough for the most sane among us, let alone someone on the ropes.

zepto 11y ago

Wanting help is not the same as being able to be helped. Veterans often have what is called 'treatment resistant PTSD', which is another way of saying that we haven't figured out how to treat them. There is a wealth of material on how even veterans who have supportive families and are housed and in treatment can't always hold down a job. New treatments such as VR based exposure therapy, or MDMA therapy are promising, but the standard of care is currently CBT and/or drugs, which have generally poor outcomes. We just don't know how to treat PTSD in general. This has nothing to do with whether people 'want' help or not.

monkmartinez 11y ago
Sure. We do our best with the training we've had to handle the situations we are presented with. I know there are subtleties and nuance, especially with vets. That doesn't change the fact that we have to deal with them now. I'm not minimizing their issues, nor am I saying one-size fits all... but I would be remiss to not say: there are a lot of people dealing with mental/medical problems that are resistant to traditional therapies that don't resort to self-destructive behaviour to cope. To wave off all the choices they make on a day-to-day basis is a disservice them and flies in the face of the people that are dealing with the same issues in non-self-destructive manner.
- wpietri 11y ago
  If you think addicts are making "choices" in the conventional sense of that term, you haven't quite caught on to the nature of addiction. They no longer have a choice. That's why there are no ex-addicts, just people in recovery. They spend the rest of their lives learning to avoid waking the beast that dwells within them. They very carefully construct lives that keep them away from circumstances where they lose the power of choice. It's not an easy thing. I have friends who have made it so far, and their struggles were enormous. I have friends and family who didn't make it, and they're now dead. And I know plenty of people who just aren't addictive by nature; they made all the same choices and never had a problem at all. I get why people don't like this. We all want to believe in the power of will. In particular, we want to believe that the power of our own will is sufficient to the challenges we face. But sometimes it isn't, and if we accepted that, we'd have fewer homeless addicts.
knughit 11y ago
Holding down a job isn't relevant. They did a job for us, we owe them care in the face of the disability that job created.
- Kristine1975 11y ago
  > They did a job for us Only if we are the Military-Industrial Complex.

yuudu_literal 11y ago

> I've loaded many a homeless into my fire engine Err... why? Were they on fire? Why is the fire department involved in homeless people?

monknomo 11y ago
The fire departments in most towns in America provide emergency medical services. 911 calls about health related things often result in a fire truck arriving, rather than an ambulance.
- chei0aiV 11y ago
  What?
  - monknomo 11y ago
    I don't know what the history is, I'm sure it's complicated. You've got hospital ambulances, private ambulances, city fire departments, county fire departments, volunteer fire departments and federal fire fighting organizations all potentially in the same place, all summonable by a 911 dispatcher. They all have EMT training and gear. Who shows up and how is it decided? Beats me.
    - chei0aiV 11y ago
      Well, as long as whoever shows up has the required experience and equipment to solve the situation, great! I guess the fire fighting orgs have medical equipment and training too? Sometimes human organisation is baffling if you are seeing it from a step further out but makes complete sense when viewed from the inside.