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>A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle" I used to also think that many homeless "preferred the lifestyle of homelessness" but I recently learned of a town in Ca

>A lot of them prefer this "lifestyle" I used to also think that many homeless "preferred the lifestyle of homelessness" but I recently learned of a town in Canada (Medicine Hat) that found it more cost effective to house the homeless. This myth that people prefer to be homeless was shattered and this town found that nearly all homeless were able to reintegrated back into having their own places. The mayor was skeptical at first now, he says, “It makes financial sense. That’s how I had my epiphany and was converted. You can actually save money by giving somebody some dignity and giving them a place to live.” Medicine Hat on brink of ending homelessness http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medicine-hat-on-brink-of-ending-homelessness-mayor-says-1.2644074 http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/medicine-hat-on-brink-... http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/medicine-hat-has-almost-eliminated-homelessness-by-giving-homeless-people-the-keys-to-their-own-apartments http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/medicine-hat-has-al...

jonknee 11y ago
Being homeless in Calgary is a lot different than the SF Bay area (you don't die in the Winter being a big one!). I'm positive there are many in SF who would benefit from a similar program, but there would still be a ton of homeless people.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Salt-Lake-City-a-model-for-S-F-on-homeless-5587357.php http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Salt-Lake-City-a-model-... I searched "salt lake city homeless" remembering the program there and the SF Gate article discussing it's applicability to SF happened to be the first result, so I'm just embracing the irony, not trying to force it.
mabbo 11y ago
Our super-Conservative government for the last decade (now replaced by a young, hip, Liberal one) was actually really big behind the 'housing-first' method of helping the homeless (you get an apartment, no questions asked, then we work on your drug problems, etc later), and put a lot of money towards it. At first, this seems very socially liberal and at odds with a Conservative party kind of thing until you look at the financials and realize it actually is fiscally very conservative- it saves a ton of money on policing and medical care. All that said, have you been to Medicine Hat? That's not a place with a very relaxed 'homeless lifestyle'. It's -15C here in Toronto today, and we're like 700km further south. In the west coast of the USA, you can survive on the street without the air itself killing you.
- microcolonel 11y ago
  Too bad the new hot thing will be "does this politician have a vagina?".
- themartorana 11y ago
  Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?
  - lintiness 11y ago
    political arguments against anything these days are emotional reactions to parties and politicians rather than policy. people need to turn off the cable news and live less angry lives.
    - kifler 11y ago
      I think most people would argue that they had to pay for their housing but here we have people getting it for free.
    - athenot 11y ago
      ...and get to know some of the homeless on a personal level. Seriously, this is a human issue. We somehow look on these individuals as if they were almost non-human, yet they have powerful stories and painful experiences. I'm not doing a good job at that but I try to make it a point to reach outside of my fully-customized bubble, and engage other people who could use some respect and human dignity. My impact is minimal in terms of numbers but chatting for 10 min with someone on the street can really make their day. Who knows, if it happens enough, that person may regain the courage it takes to get back in society and reach out to services that are more competent than I at helping in the details.
      - lintiness 11y ago
        a huge number of homeless are mentally ill and/or have serious substance abuse problems. re-acclimating can be very difficult. (and NO, i'm not suggesting we not try)
ktRolster 11y ago
Utah did the same thing: http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic... The article mentions that some people had trouble adapting to their new houses. Some slept in tents inside their house, others still slept on the street several days a week until they got used to having a house.
middleq 11y ago
Not having a "home" might be a side effect of the homeless lifestyle. There is a difference between a free roof and working.
ryanlol 11y ago
The record low °C in SF is -3. I don't think there's anywhere in canada that's even remotely comparable.
mc32 11y ago
There are more than one kind of homeless person. There are the ones who simply fell on hard times and don't have money to pay for rent. There are the ones suffer addiction, there are the ones who suffer mental trauma there are the ones who have severe mental disorders, there are the ones avoiding regular society, etc. Housing first works best for the fist class as well as those who have succumbed to addiction. Some of the others require intensive intervention, perhaps institutional. As someone pointed out, its complex, but it's something beyond any individual's purview, responsibility, etc., so inhabitants who do pay taxes, etc., should expect some kind of organization would be responsible for addressing the issue rather than the knee jerk public castigation for speaking one's opinion about a social issue.
- mbrutsch 11y ago
  > there are the ones avoiding regular society, etc. Indeed, something as simple as smoking weed (regardless of the reason) will exclude you from most government assistance. Living indoors is not always a suitable trade-off for giving up medications that work.
  - mc32 11y ago
    Not even weed, there are government assisted housing units which will remove people for regular smoking. But you also have people avoiding an address for whatever legal or avoidance reasons.
- aggieben 11y ago
  Yep, I agree. They're definitely not all the same, and some are more helpable (better word please?) than others.
aggieben 11y ago
Well, I think we might mean different things by "homeless". The kind of people who prefer homelessness (and I know a couple, even in my small town) don't prefer it because they don't have a house. If someone were to just provide them a house, they'd be perfectly happy with that. No, they prefer their lifestyle to the available alternatives because it frees them of any responsibility for themselves. Naturally, though, not all homeless should be categorized this way. A great many of them surely have serious psychological disorders that prevent them from living normal independent lives. Surely many of them have suffered in many ways, and many of them are surely in the circumstances they're in due to factors they couldn't control. These are the ones that really do need help of _some_ kind. I sympathize with people like the mayor of the town you use as an example, but he's wrong: you don't give people dignity by giving them a place to live. Housing isn't the source of human dignity. When you give people with no dignity things of value, they don't value those things, and then eventually they become valueless through abuse and neglect. That's why homeless shelters have to have volunteers to monitor when they house the homeless. That's why simply building a big apartment complex and giving keys to the homeless isn't a long-term solution and in all likelihood a fast-track to a destroyed property and a bunch of people spending some time in the clink. Outside of personal interventions and great investment of resources into individuals, I'm not sure there are really any great solutions. It makes me sad, but I don't have any great ideas for how to help them better (writ large), than try to meet some basic material needs (food pantries, temporary shelters) and keep them safe.
BurningFrog 11y ago
Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar. In reality, the homeless population in 2016 SF and in 2014 Medicine Hat are shaped by the specific conditions and incentives in those communities.
- citizensixteen 11y ago
  >Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar. Certainly, being homeless in Iceland would be different that being homeless in Liberia. I was just sharing an example of a situation where a person had their views about the homeless changed. In this case it was the mayor of Medicine Hat.
st3v3r 11y ago
Part of the difference in attitude might be the difference in climate between San Francisco and Medicine Hat.

jonknee 11y ago

Being homeless in Calgary is a lot different than the SF Bay area (you don't die in the Winter being a big one!). I'm positive there are many in SF who would benefit from a similar program, but there would still be a ton of homeless people.

maxerickson 11y ago
http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Salt-Lake-City-a-model-for-S-F-on-homeless-5587357.php http://www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Salt-Lake-City-a-model-... I searched "salt lake city homeless" remembering the program there and the SF Gate article discussing it's applicability to SF happened to be the first result, so I'm just embracing the irony, not trying to force it.

mabbo 11y ago

Our super-Conservative government for the last decade (now replaced by a young, hip, Liberal one) was actually really big behind the 'housing-first' method of helping the homeless (you get an apartment, no questions asked, then we work on your drug problems, etc later), and put a lot of money towards it. At first, this seems very socially liberal and at odds with a Conservative party kind of thing until you look at the financials and realize it actually is fiscally very conservative- it saves a ton of money on policing and medical care. All that said, have you been to Medicine Hat? That's not a place with a very relaxed 'homeless lifestyle'. It's -15C here in Toronto today, and we're like 700km further south. In the west coast of the USA, you can survive on the street without the air itself killing you.

microcolonel 11y ago
Too bad the new hot thing will be "does this politician have a vagina?".
themartorana 11y ago
Well, that's great, then. It seems like a liberal calling card but appeals to everyone's desire to save money while providing actually useful social services. So what's the political argument against it?
- lintiness 11y ago
  political arguments against anything these days are emotional reactions to parties and politicians rather than policy. people need to turn off the cable news and live less angry lives.
  - kifler 11y ago
    I think most people would argue that they had to pay for their housing but here we have people getting it for free.
  - athenot 11y ago
    ...and get to know some of the homeless on a personal level. Seriously, this is a human issue. We somehow look on these individuals as if they were almost non-human, yet they have powerful stories and painful experiences. I'm not doing a good job at that but I try to make it a point to reach outside of my fully-customized bubble, and engage other people who could use some respect and human dignity. My impact is minimal in terms of numbers but chatting for 10 min with someone on the street can really make their day. Who knows, if it happens enough, that person may regain the courage it takes to get back in society and reach out to services that are more competent than I at helping in the details.
    - lintiness 11y ago
      a huge number of homeless are mentally ill and/or have serious substance abuse problems. re-acclimating can be very difficult. (and NO, i'm not suggesting we not try)

ktRolster 11y ago

Utah did the same thing: http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic... The article mentions that some people had trouble adapting to their new houses. Some slept in tents inside their house, others still slept on the street several days a week until they got used to having a house.

middleq 11y ago

Not having a "home" might be a side effect of the homeless lifestyle. There is a difference between a free roof and working.

ryanlol 11y ago

The record low °C in SF is -3. I don't think there's anywhere in canada that's even remotely comparable.

mc32 11y ago

There are more than one kind of homeless person. There are the ones who simply fell on hard times and don't have money to pay for rent. There are the ones suffer addiction, there are the ones who suffer mental trauma there are the ones who have severe mental disorders, there are the ones avoiding regular society, etc. Housing first works best for the fist class as well as those who have succumbed to addiction. Some of the others require intensive intervention, perhaps institutional. As someone pointed out, its complex, but it's something beyond any individual's purview, responsibility, etc., so inhabitants who do pay taxes, etc., should expect some kind of organization would be responsible for addressing the issue rather than the knee jerk public castigation for speaking one's opinion about a social issue.

mbrutsch 11y ago
> there are the ones avoiding regular society, etc. Indeed, something as simple as smoking weed (regardless of the reason) will exclude you from most government assistance. Living indoors is not always a suitable trade-off for giving up medications that work.
- mc32 11y ago
  Not even weed, there are government assisted housing units which will remove people for regular smoking. But you also have people avoiding an address for whatever legal or avoidance reasons.
aggieben 11y ago
Yep, I agree. They're definitely not all the same, and some are more helpable (better word please?) than others.

aggieben 11y ago

Well, I think we might mean different things by "homeless". The kind of people who prefer homelessness (and I know a couple, even in my small town) don't prefer it because they don't have a house. If someone were to just provide them a house, they'd be perfectly happy with that. No, they prefer their lifestyle to the available alternatives because it frees them of any responsibility for themselves. Naturally, though, not all homeless should be categorized this way. A great many of them surely have serious psychological disorders that prevent them from living normal independent lives. Surely many of them have suffered in many ways, and many of them are surely in the circumstances they're in due to factors they couldn't control. These are the ones that really do need help of _some_ kind. I sympathize with people like the mayor of the town you use as an example, but he's wrong: you don't give people dignity by giving them a place to live. Housing isn't the source of human dignity. When you give people with no dignity things of value, they don't value those things, and then eventually they become valueless through abuse and neglect. That's why homeless shelters have to have volunteers to monitor when they house the homeless. That's why simply building a big apartment complex and giving keys to the homeless isn't a long-term solution and in all likelihood a fast-track to a destroyed property and a bunch of people spending some time in the clink. Outside of personal interventions and great investment of resources into individuals, I'm not sure there are really any great solutions. It makes me sad, but I don't have any great ideas for how to help them better (writ large), than try to meet some basic material needs (food pantries, temporary shelters) and keep them safe.

BurningFrog 11y ago

Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar. In reality, the homeless population in 2016 SF and in 2014 Medicine Hat are shaped by the specific conditions and incentives in those communities.

citizensixteen 11y ago
>Your argument rests on the assumption that all homeless populations across the world are similar. Certainly, being homeless in Iceland would be different that being homeless in Liberia. I was just sharing an example of a situation where a person had their views about the homeless changed. In this case it was the mayor of Medicine Hat.

st3v3r 11y ago

Part of the difference in attitude might be the difference in climate between San Francisco and Medicine Hat.