6 ms·

Right, you have a high paying job so it's easy for you to sit on a perch well above the median and tell people how simple it is.

by hueving 11y ago

toomuchtodo 11y ago
It's simple the same way exercise is simple: knowing what to do is easy, having willpower to do it is hard. Being financially independent can be done on a median wage, full stop. https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ "Is that all too fluffy and philosophical? OK, fine. Here’s how to cut your life costs in half. Start by getting rid of your Debt Emergency if you have one. Live close to work. Move to another city if you enjoy adventure. Don’t borrow money for cars, and don’t buy stupid ones. Ride a bike wherever you can. Cancel your TV service. Stop wasting money on groceries. Give your kids the opportunity to achieve greatness without being pampered. Lose the overpriced cell phones. Learn to appreciate the life-boosting joy of using your own body to get things done. Learn to mock convenience. Practice optimism." http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-m... "A family of four in the US can live comfortably on about 24k per year plus having a paid-off house. With an nice conservative 4% annual withdrawal/return rate on your investments, you need $600k invested to generate this cashflow, inflation-adjusted, forever, plus your $200k house. $800k total. Or, if you want to get off your butt and work very occasionally to earn $12k per year, you can slice the $600k number down to $300k! Or you can save the $600k AND work, and keep saving more and more over the years – ending up a multimillionaire all while doing very little paid work." You will never get ahead if you live in SF, period (maybe if you strike a startup lottery ticket; with those odds, might as well buy a traditional lottery ticket and save the nights and weekends). I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. You can view it as an adventure, but you'll eventually need to dig out financially (overcompensate retirement savings) when you decide to move somewhere else.
- ahh 11y ago
  This works once you have a (supportive) partner. It requires living in nice rural communities where you will never, ever meet a new person, though, so if you start it single you'll stay that way forever. So I'm in a major metropolitan center, burning cash at a way higher rate, so I can hopefully find a wife. If I'm very, very lucky, that wife will want to move with me to rural Colorado. Sadly, this insane plan is about the best I can imagine.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    Have you tried online dating? I know that sounds silly, but it might help optimize your search for a partner who shares your interests. > It requires living in nice rural communities where you will never, ever meet a new person, though, so if you start it single you'll stay that way forever. I live 15 minutes from the beach in the Tampa area. Low cost of living area.
    - ahh 11y ago
      Online dating still requires you to be in a location with an extremely large population of single women. It doesn't matter if you visit the one bar or OKCupid if you've already asked out and been rejected by the only three eligible people in your zip code. You need a large enough population to successfully find a match, and the only place to find large populations of single women are major cities. (And a tiny fraction of cities at that--I chose poorly here and very much regret it.) Basically, when it comes to dating it doesn't matter if you live in Issaquah (15 miles from Seattle) or Othello (180 miles from Seattle.) In neither case would anyone who lives in Seattle be bothered to go out on a date with you.
      - jes 11y ago
        With respect, I'm struggling a bit with your last paragraph. I live in Kirkland and I'm dating a woman who lives in West Seattle. We're older, but it's not like we're people who couldn't easily date other people who lived closer if we wished to do so. I wish you success.
      - madengr 11y ago
- cmdrfred 11y ago
  I believe you are correct with it being possible on a median wage (with a great deal of scrimping and saving at that level for a decent period of time) but half of people make much less than that. So it isn't really possible for 150 million Americans or so.
  - cylinder 11y ago
    It'd be a lot more feasible if they didn't have to pay enormous and unpredictable health insurance premiums, deductibles, coinsurance, uncovered costs, etc.
- serge2k 11y ago
  > Being financially independent can be done on a median wage, full stop. Do you make median wage? If so, good for you. If not, why don't you go do that before telling people how easy it is.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - joelwilliamson 11y ago
    He never said it was easy. It's simple, but not easy.
    - chillwaves 11y ago
      The term is not meaningful. It is much more complicated to save money when you are making poverty levels than it is working at decent wages. There are more costs associated with being poor.
- billmalarky 11y ago
  "You will never get ahead if you live in SF, period" I like the way you think, but this isn't absolutely true. I live in a high cost of living area (NYC) and I manage to invest a large portion of my take home. I find it's easier to control one's spending than it is to control one's income based on location.
  - tomp 11y ago
    Out of curiosity (I live in London but am interested in NY long-term), where approximately do you live, and how moch do you spend for (1) housing, and (2) life (food, groceries, ...)?
    - billmalarky 11y ago
      I live in Queens and commute to manhattan like everyone else (very short commute by NYC standards too). I spend roughly $1000 per month on rent and utilities (I have a roommate). The thing about NYC is, the variance in spending is astronomical. If you try to keep up with the Joneses here you are literally competing at the global level of wealth. Luxuries here, like eating out, generally cost more. On the flip side, the median _household_ income in NYC is around $50,000. So it's certainly possible to survive at a much lower cost of living than a traditional "Manhattan" lifestyle assumes. That said, life in NYC is objectively "harder" than anywhere else in the US so far as I've experienced (I imagine it isn't too different from London though tbh). If you want to live in comfort relative to say the midwest, you're gonna pay out the nose for it. Alternatively, you can save tens of thousands of dollars per year by opting for some relatively basic lifestyle changes such as having a roommate, eating at home, and not owning a car. Those 3 tradeoffs alone will max your 401k every year. The consideration for accepting the "harder" lifestyle of NYC, is there are opportunities here that simply don't exist in cozier places to live in the US. That and you live longer due to all the extra walking ;-) NOTE: All of this assumes you are child-free. Having children in NYC is a complete game changer cost wise from what I hear.
- melted 11y ago
  >> on about 24k per year Horseshit. A family of 4 will spend about 2/3rds of that amount on healthcare (meaning insurance + deductibles and copays) alone. Then there's real estate tax as well, utilities, food, necessities. I'd say $50K is bare minimum, and $75k could actually be quite comfortable after some belt tightening.
  - hwstar 11y ago
    24K is a magic number. You qualify for an enhanced silver ACA policy with very low premiums, deductibles and copays. I do own a home and rental property, and pay property taxes annually. I did my first year at a 24K annual income with a slight assist from after-tax savings after being employed for 30+ years. Being 55 in San Diego, and getting an electronics engineering position ain't happening right now.
    - melted 11y ago
      Do you have a "family of 4"?
      - hwstar 11y ago
        24K is the sweet spot for a family of 2.
        melted 11y ago
        I still don't get how this would work. Where I live, our family of 3 has to spend more than that on groceries and real estate tax alone.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
- chillwaves 11y ago
  It is not "willpower" that is preventing most people from high earnings.
- CajunAlexTrebec 11y ago
  I'd like to share my experience here in hopes that it inspires others. I'm 37 years old, single, never married, no children. A programmer recently turned sales guy. Through my 20s, I experienced an ever escalating salary as I moved up through the programming ranks. By the age of 29, I had accumulated about 25k of credit card debt and still have 35k of student loan debt yet to be repaid. At that time I was making around 90k a year. Through poor financial decisions and instant gratification coupled with no cash cushion for emergencies, I amassed the credit card debt. The financial crisis of 2008 hit. I found myself vulnerable to unemployment without savings to fall back on. I was laid off during this time but quickly found another job. The experience scared me deeply. I watched the news as people lost their homes, their savings and their way of life. I wanted to live a way of life that wasn't so financially precarious. I started by creating a realistic budget of all expenses. I ruthlessly cut any expense that were "optional" (this is a matter of personal circumstances). The first goal I achieved was a 3k cash cushion for emergencies (unforeseen car repairs, illness resulting in a large bill, etc). The next step was paying on my debt before any discretionary spending. I created a habit and pride in paying a fixed amount out of every paycheck no matter what the circumstances that month. The progress was slow at first. I paid off the smallest credit card balance first to achieve a sense of accomplishment early on. It was a small victory but it helped motivate me to continue. The largest credit card balance was about 24k. It took a couple of years to pay that thing off. During that time I was still able to go on cheap vacations and enjoy a meal out occasionally. The key to success for me was tracking my progress each payday and remaining steadfast in my commitment to pay the debt down. The final piece of the puzzle was the student loan debt. Using the new habits of frugality and commitment along with the additional monthly budget that wasn't being used to pay on credit card debt, I was able to pay down about 35k in student loan debt in about 2 years. I remember making that last payment. That moment wasn't cathartic. No fireworks. No congratulations. I was utterly shocked by the inevitability of the passage of time. If I had made no plan, taken no action, those four years would have passed and I would likely be in the same position today that I was in when I started the debt reduction journey. It was truly frightening to think I could have done nothing and achieved nothing for those four years. Today, I've nearly doubled my income since that time by moving into sales with the same employer. The work-from-home lifestyle suits me well. No commute, no expenses related to commuting. Healthy lunches cooked in my own kitchen. The benefits are many. Without this debt reduction experience, I would likely be wasting all the income I'm making now. I've learned how to save, invest and take a more critical eye to spending. A little about how I live day-to-day (the original impetus for writing this comment). I live in an old apartment building in a trendy part of Dallas, TX. The studio unit I occupy is less than 400 square feet. I found an existing tiny house in the middle of a city! Over the years, I've gotten rid of many personal possession that I simply no longer need or use. That experience has been freeing and results in less stress. My rent is 500 dollars a month. The single family homes around me on the same block are 400k+ for an original 2 bedroom, 1 bath bungalow. The new, larger homes are 800k+ for 4 bedrooms, 5 baths. My neighbors pay more in property taxes than I pay yearly in rent. That doesn't include home owners insurance, lawn maintenance, home repairs, and all the other hidden expenses in owning a home. IKEA has been instrumental in getting the most out of such a small space. Decorating and innovating around this has been a fun experience. I have pictures if you're interested in seeing how it all comes together. I've not sacrificed the wonderful, walkable neighborhood in which I live to make this change. I did have to look hard to find a rental this small, cheap, clean and safe. I drive a 2003 Honda with 160k miles on it. It's long since paid off. Luckily, I'm getting past the age where I have the urge to buy a stupid, expensive car to boost my ego and my status. Working from home has reduced the miles I'm putting on the car which will hopefully extend it's useful life and value. Mr. Money Mustache was a huge influence on me during this time. I grew to believe it was possible for me to extract myself from the debt trap I'd built. My cash cushion has been extended to 24 months of expenses. This doesn't include any unemployment benefits for which I might be eligible. I max out my 401k contribution at 18.5k a year. I max out my IRA contribution, too. The rest of the free cashflow either goes into my brokerage accounts or to replenish my cash cushion if it's utilized at all. I sleep more soundly at night. The perception of risk moving from programming to sales was lowered because I no longer live paycheck-to-paycheck. I have a clear path to a nice retirement nest egg and adventures abroad in the future. If you want help in making a plan or even someone to simply listen, I'm game.

Right, you have a high paying job so it's easy for you to sit on a perch well above the median and tell people how simple it is.

by hueving 11y ago

Right, you have a high paying job so it's easy for you to sit on a perch well above the median and tell people how simple it is.

toomuchtodo 11y ago

It's simple the same way exercise is simple: knowing what to do is easy, having willpower to do it is hard. Being financially independent can be done on a median wage, full stop. https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/ "Is that all too fluffy and philosophical? OK, fine. Here’s how to cut your life costs in half. Start by getting rid of your Debt Emergency if you have one. Live close to work. Move to another city if you enjoy adventure. Don’t borrow money for cars, and don’t buy stupid ones. Ride a bike wherever you can. Cancel your TV service. Stop wasting money on groceries. Give your kids the opportunity to achieve greatness without being pampered. Lose the overpriced cell phones. Learn to appreciate the life-boosting joy of using your own body to get things done. Learn to mock convenience. Practice optimism." http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-made-ten-bucks-at-a-time/ http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/08/01/a-millionaire-is-m... "A family of four in the US can live comfortably on about 24k per year plus having a paid-off house. With an nice conservative 4% annual withdrawal/return rate on your investments, you need $600k invested to generate this cashflow, inflation-adjusted, forever, plus your $200k house. $800k total. Or, if you want to get off your butt and work very occasionally to earn $12k per year, you can slice the $600k number down to $300k! Or you can save the $600k AND work, and keep saving more and more over the years – ending up a multimillionaire all while doing very little paid work." You will never get ahead if you live in SF, period (maybe if you strike a startup lottery ticket; with those odds, might as well buy a traditional lottery ticket and save the nights and weekends). I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. You can view it as an adventure, but you'll eventually need to dig out financially (overcompensate retirement savings) when you decide to move somewhere else.

ahh 11y ago
This works once you have a (supportive) partner. It requires living in nice rural communities where you will never, ever meet a new person, though, so if you start it single you'll stay that way forever. So I'm in a major metropolitan center, burning cash at a way higher rate, so I can hopefully find a wife. If I'm very, very lucky, that wife will want to move with me to rural Colorado. Sadly, this insane plan is about the best I can imagine.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Have you tried online dating? I know that sounds silly, but it might help optimize your search for a partner who shares your interests. > It requires living in nice rural communities where you will never, ever meet a new person, though, so if you start it single you'll stay that way forever. I live 15 minutes from the beach in the Tampa area. Low cost of living area.
  - ahh 11y ago
    Online dating still requires you to be in a location with an extremely large population of single women. It doesn't matter if you visit the one bar or OKCupid if you've already asked out and been rejected by the only three eligible people in your zip code. You need a large enough population to successfully find a match, and the only place to find large populations of single women are major cities. (And a tiny fraction of cities at that--I chose poorly here and very much regret it.) Basically, when it comes to dating it doesn't matter if you live in Issaquah (15 miles from Seattle) or Othello (180 miles from Seattle.) In neither case would anyone who lives in Seattle be bothered to go out on a date with you.
    - jes 11y ago
      With respect, I'm struggling a bit with your last paragraph. I live in Kirkland and I'm dating a woman who lives in West Seattle. We're older, but it's not like we're people who couldn't easily date other people who lived closer if we wished to do so. I wish you success.
    - madengr 11y ago
cmdrfred 11y ago
I believe you are correct with it being possible on a median wage (with a great deal of scrimping and saving at that level for a decent period of time) but half of people make much less than that. So it isn't really possible for 150 million Americans or so.
- cylinder 11y ago
  It'd be a lot more feasible if they didn't have to pay enormous and unpredictable health insurance premiums, deductibles, coinsurance, uncovered costs, etc.
serge2k 11y ago
> Being financially independent can be done on a median wage, full stop. Do you make median wage? If so, good for you. If not, why don't you go do that before telling people how easy it is.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- joelwilliamson 11y ago
  He never said it was easy. It's simple, but not easy.
  - chillwaves 11y ago
    The term is not meaningful. It is much more complicated to save money when you are making poverty levels than it is working at decent wages. There are more costs associated with being poor.
billmalarky 11y ago
"You will never get ahead if you live in SF, period" I like the way you think, but this isn't absolutely true. I live in a high cost of living area (NYC) and I manage to invest a large portion of my take home. I find it's easier to control one's spending than it is to control one's income based on location.
- tomp 11y ago
  Out of curiosity (I live in London but am interested in NY long-term), where approximately do you live, and how moch do you spend for (1) housing, and (2) life (food, groceries, ...)?
  - billmalarky 11y ago
    I live in Queens and commute to manhattan like everyone else (very short commute by NYC standards too). I spend roughly $1000 per month on rent and utilities (I have a roommate). The thing about NYC is, the variance in spending is astronomical. If you try to keep up with the Joneses here you are literally competing at the global level of wealth. Luxuries here, like eating out, generally cost more. On the flip side, the median _household_ income in NYC is around $50,000. So it's certainly possible to survive at a much lower cost of living than a traditional "Manhattan" lifestyle assumes. That said, life in NYC is objectively "harder" than anywhere else in the US so far as I've experienced (I imagine it isn't too different from London though tbh). If you want to live in comfort relative to say the midwest, you're gonna pay out the nose for it. Alternatively, you can save tens of thousands of dollars per year by opting for some relatively basic lifestyle changes such as having a roommate, eating at home, and not owning a car. Those 3 tradeoffs alone will max your 401k every year. The consideration for accepting the "harder" lifestyle of NYC, is there are opportunities here that simply don't exist in cozier places to live in the US. That and you live longer due to all the extra walking ;-) NOTE: All of this assumes you are child-free. Having children in NYC is a complete game changer cost wise from what I hear.
melted 11y ago
>> on about 24k per year Horseshit. A family of 4 will spend about 2/3rds of that amount on healthcare (meaning insurance + deductibles and copays) alone. Then there's real estate tax as well, utilities, food, necessities. I'd say $50K is bare minimum, and $75k could actually be quite comfortable after some belt tightening.
- hwstar 11y ago
  24K is a magic number. You qualify for an enhanced silver ACA policy with very low premiums, deductibles and copays. I do own a home and rental property, and pay property taxes annually. I did my first year at a 24K annual income with a slight assist from after-tax savings after being employed for 30+ years. Being 55 in San Diego, and getting an electronics engineering position ain't happening right now.
  - melted 11y ago
    Do you have a "family of 4"?
    - hwstar 11y ago
      24K is the sweet spot for a family of 2.
      - melted 11y ago
        I still don't get how this would work. Where I live, our family of 3 has to spend more than that on groceries and real estate tax alone.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
chillwaves 11y ago
It is not "willpower" that is preventing most people from high earnings.
CajunAlexTrebec 11y ago
I'd like to share my experience here in hopes that it inspires others. I'm 37 years old, single, never married, no children. A programmer recently turned sales guy. Through my 20s, I experienced an ever escalating salary as I moved up through the programming ranks. By the age of 29, I had accumulated about 25k of credit card debt and still have 35k of student loan debt yet to be repaid. At that time I was making around 90k a year. Through poor financial decisions and instant gratification coupled with no cash cushion for emergencies, I amassed the credit card debt. The financial crisis of 2008 hit. I found myself vulnerable to unemployment without savings to fall back on. I was laid off during this time but quickly found another job. The experience scared me deeply. I watched the news as people lost their homes, their savings and their way of life. I wanted to live a way of life that wasn't so financially precarious. I started by creating a realistic budget of all expenses. I ruthlessly cut any expense that were "optional" (this is a matter of personal circumstances). The first goal I achieved was a 3k cash cushion for emergencies (unforeseen car repairs, illness resulting in a large bill, etc). The next step was paying on my debt before any discretionary spending. I created a habit and pride in paying a fixed amount out of every paycheck no matter what the circumstances that month. The progress was slow at first. I paid off the smallest credit card balance first to achieve a sense of accomplishment early on. It was a small victory but it helped motivate me to continue. The largest credit card balance was about 24k. It took a couple of years to pay that thing off. During that time I was still able to go on cheap vacations and enjoy a meal out occasionally. The key to success for me was tracking my progress each payday and remaining steadfast in my commitment to pay the debt down. The final piece of the puzzle was the student loan debt. Using the new habits of frugality and commitment along with the additional monthly budget that wasn't being used to pay on credit card debt, I was able to pay down about 35k in student loan debt in about 2 years. I remember making that last payment. That moment wasn't cathartic. No fireworks. No congratulations. I was utterly shocked by the inevitability of the passage of time. If I had made no plan, taken no action, those four years would have passed and I would likely be in the same position today that I was in when I started the debt reduction journey. It was truly frightening to think I could have done nothing and achieved nothing for those four years. Today, I've nearly doubled my income since that time by moving into sales with the same employer. The work-from-home lifestyle suits me well. No commute, no expenses related to commuting. Healthy lunches cooked in my own kitchen. The benefits are many. Without this debt reduction experience, I would likely be wasting all the income I'm making now. I've learned how to save, invest and take a more critical eye to spending. A little about how I live day-to-day (the original impetus for writing this comment). I live in an old apartment building in a trendy part of Dallas, TX. The studio unit I occupy is less than 400 square feet. I found an existing tiny house in the middle of a city! Over the years, I've gotten rid of many personal possession that I simply no longer need or use. That experience has been freeing and results in less stress. My rent is 500 dollars a month. The single family homes around me on the same block are 400k+ for an original 2 bedroom, 1 bath bungalow. The new, larger homes are 800k+ for 4 bedrooms, 5 baths. My neighbors pay more in property taxes than I pay yearly in rent. That doesn't include home owners insurance, lawn maintenance, home repairs, and all the other hidden expenses in owning a home. IKEA has been instrumental in getting the most out of such a small space. Decorating and innovating around this has been a fun experience. I have pictures if you're interested in seeing how it all comes together. I've not sacrificed the wonderful, walkable neighborhood in which I live to make this change. I did have to look hard to find a rental this small, cheap, clean and safe. I drive a 2003 Honda with 160k miles on it. It's long since paid off. Luckily, I'm getting past the age where I have the urge to buy a stupid, expensive car to boost my ego and my status. Working from home has reduced the miles I'm putting on the car which will hopefully extend it's useful life and value. Mr. Money Mustache was a huge influence on me during this time. I grew to believe it was possible for me to extract myself from the debt trap I'd built. My cash cushion has been extended to 24 months of expenses. This doesn't include any unemployment benefits for which I might be eligible. I max out my 401k contribution at 18.5k a year. I max out my IRA contribution, too. The rest of the free cashflow either goes into my brokerage accounts or to replenish my cash cushion if it's utilized at all. I sleep more soundly at night. The perception of risk moving from programming to sales was lowered because I no longer live paycheck-to-paycheck. I have a clear path to a nice retirement nest egg and adventures abroad in the future. If you want help in making a plan or even someone to simply listen, I'm game.