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A friend of mine at Apple reported multiple Black Vehicles (Lincoln Town Cars and Escalades) with at least one having MD License Plates at the Apple Executive B

A friend of mine at Apple reported multiple Black Vehicles (Lincoln Town Cars and Escalades) with at least one having MD License Plates at the Apple Executive Briefing Center this morning between 11AM and Noon. Occupants had ear pieces and sun glasses and were accompanied by a CHP (California Highway Patrol) cruiser and three motorcycle escorts. I suppose it's possible this was a quick (less than 1 hour) VIP stop but given Tim's message last night, as well as the reaction of folks on campus who were bandying about comments like "I don't want to work on this or because I don't want to be deposed" the impression certainly was it was not a friendly visit. Given Tim's very public push-back I'd think delivery of an NSL with accompanying intimidation is at least possible. I submitted this HN and updated in real-time. There's a bit more discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11120365 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11120365

berkeleynerd 11y ago
Just a follow-up to correct the record as much as possible. I believe this motorcade was related to the Prime Minister of Malaysia's visit to Apple per the following tweet. Hat tip to the redditor @frenvedd over on r/apple for this information! https://twitter.com/DelFazli/status/700133655444746241 https://twitter.com/DelFazli/status/700133655444746241
yung_badlady 11y ago
What's intimidating about sun glasses and ear pieces?
- rudolf0 11y ago
  Nothing. Bringing a bunch of special agents along with you to a meeting is intimidating, though. I suppose in their defense, they may be the particular agents working on the San Bernadino case, who arrived to explain exactly why they need the access or whatever.
  - yung_badlady 11y ago
    > Bringing a bunch of special agents along with you to a meeting is intimidating Again, what is intimidating about that? The agency they were dealing with was the FBI, right? And that's the correct agency to deal with this matter, right? Well in the FBI, 'special agent' simply means any worker who does investigatory work.
    - calhoun137 11y ago
      Its intimidating for the same reason that having the kgb show up for a russian companies meeting would be intimidating.
    - d4nt 11y ago
      The way powerful people often maintain control of a situation is through contrivances such as unusual dress, unusual ways of speaking, unusual rituals or by having a large entourage. If you analyse each element closely it's clear that they're silly. Why do they need earpieces in when visiting Apple? Why must all the cars match? Why must they dress in the same way? Why do they need to bring all those people, what are they all doing? But the point is, when faced with something new and strange, people often pause and withdraw. This allows you to dominate the situation and prevent dissent.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - jsprogrammer 11y ago
        Earpieces are probably worn routinely, just as many other people you may see walking around. Large organizations typically procure fleets of vehicles that are all the same model. This reduces development and maintenance costs. Many institutions, particularly law enforcement, have strict dress regulations and many distribute their own uniforms appropriate to the particular position.
        nitrogen 11y ago
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
hn9780470248775 11y ago
> at least one having MD License Plates Don't vehicles used by federal agencies typically bear U.S. Government license plates?
- berkeleynerd 11y ago
  According to @HillRat in the other thread : "Based on open sources, NSA has a fleet of about 100 vehicles at most in CONUS, so they would be more likely to fly vehicles cross-country if DIRNSA needed to use a fleet vehicle. Having said that, NSA doesn't just arbitrarily get involved in domestic law enforcement cases, even ones involving crypto, so let's wait to see if there's more evidence than a random HN post to support this allegation." Good information and an entirely fair statement. I'm hoping someone from Apple can chime in directly.
  - officemonkey 11y ago
    The majority of federal government travel is done with commercially available rental cars. The likelihood of the federal government driving a GSA-plate vehicle from Maryland to California to meet with Apple is about zero.
    - ethbro 11y ago
      Commercially available rental vehicles seem an extraordinarily bad idea for the NSA to drive to and from sensitive meetings in. What? They just drive silently to and from the meeting or listen to the radio?
berkeleynerd 11y ago
According to my source at Apple HQ a TV van is on the way. We should see some news coverage soon.
archmikhail 11y ago
Save people like me a trip to the Google: NSL = A national security letter (NSL) is an administrative subpoena issued by the United States federal government to gather information for national security purposes. NSLs do not require prior approval from a judge.
- iamdave 11y ago
  IANAL, but how is it a subpoena if it doesn't originate from the judiciary?
  - baddox 11y ago
    I guess you can argue semantics, but it's an order accompanied by a credible threat of violence if the order is not obeyed.
    - aback 11y ago
      I know it requires Tim Cook to be willing to martyr himself, but do we really see Obama whisking the CEO of Apple Computer off to Guantanamo or some supermax prison? I'd maybe call the bluff, and take my political stand.
      - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
        Cook wouldn't have to go that far. The court order specified Apple, not Tim Cook personally. He can simply resign instead of following the court order. For that matter, so can the engineers that Apple would need to work on this project.
        aback 11y ago
        That's interesting. IANAL but seems like you're missing something. Apple can simply let Employee B take Employee A's place after A quits. When the authorities come for B, B can quit, and Apple can re-hire A. Apple never has to comply.
mapmap 11y ago
"I don't want to be deposed" I'm not familiar with that phrase. What does it mean in this context?
- leesalminen 11y ago
  A deposition in the American judicial system is a legal proceeding in which a witness provides testimony to the courts. The witness may be examined by members of either sides legal team. This is a routine proceeding in civil cases. [0] Interestingly, people usually don't want to be deposed when they have something to hide. [0] http://litigation.findlaw.com/filing-a-lawsuit/what-is-a-deposition.html http://litigation.findlaw.com/filing-a-lawsuit/what-is-a-dep...
  - mintplant 11y ago
    > Interestingly, people usually don't want to be deposed when they have something to hide. Or because the process is a huge hassle to deal with, it sucks up days and days of your time, and it's very easy to mess something up.
  - paraxisi 11y ago
    > Interestingly, people usually don't want to be deposed when they have something to hide. That's a pretty... er, dubious claim at best?
    - amalcon 11y ago
      I mean, it's an accurate statement. It's just also true that people usually don't want to be deposed even if they have nothing to hide. The "when they have something to hide" part is just superfluous.
      - alexwebb2 11y ago
        It's not just superfluous, it changes the meaning of the statement. It's like saying "I like women when they aren't driving". You can't follow that up with, "oh, but I also like them when they are driving, so it's okay to say that".
sandworm101 11y ago
Many Apple employees are not allowed to refuse. I suggest that any employee, especially those on any sort of work visa or with any connection to the military/intel community, seek legal advice prior to signing or saying anything. There are big forces involved here that will not hesitate to squash/fire/blacklist little people.
awad 11y ago
Weirdly enough, I saw a blacked out SUV with Virginia plates and a CHP SUV in front of our office at 2nd and Harrison that looked extremely out of place. Among other things, it's a no stop area on our block and there isn't really much here to begin with. It hung out for a few minutes and then made off taking a left on Harrison (101 South, FWIW). This was around 12:30p.
csmajorfive 11y ago
This is all very standard for a VIP visit and the president of Indonesia was at Facebook and Twitter today. So there's probably a simpler, less exciting explanation here.
ianhawes 11y ago
FYI the DOJ/FBI does not utilize Lincoln Town Cars or Escalades for ops. You'll want to keep an eye out for Chevy Impala, Ford Crown Victoria, Chevy Suburban, and in rarer cases Dodge Charger (no spoiler) and GMC Denali. Typically they're darker colors, but the easiest indicator is a massive amount of tint on all windows. Remember, official vehicles will have the default state license plates without any sort of bumper stickers or license plate holders. In Maryland, unmarked LE vehicles typically use an older license plate instead of the newer design.

berkeleynerd 11y ago

Just a follow-up to correct the record as much as possible. I believe this motorcade was related to the Prime Minister of Malaysia's visit to Apple per the following tweet. Hat tip to the redditor @frenvedd over on r/apple for this information! https://twitter.com/DelFazli/status/700133655444746241 https://twitter.com/DelFazli/status/700133655444746241

yung_badlady 11y ago

What's intimidating about sun glasses and ear pieces?

rudolf0 11y ago
Nothing. Bringing a bunch of special agents along with you to a meeting is intimidating, though. I suppose in their defense, they may be the particular agents working on the San Bernadino case, who arrived to explain exactly why they need the access or whatever.
- yung_badlady 11y ago
  > Bringing a bunch of special agents along with you to a meeting is intimidating Again, what is intimidating about that? The agency they were dealing with was the FBI, right? And that's the correct agency to deal with this matter, right? Well in the FBI, 'special agent' simply means any worker who does investigatory work.
  - calhoun137 11y ago
    Its intimidating for the same reason that having the kgb show up for a russian companies meeting would be intimidating.
  - d4nt 11y ago
    The way powerful people often maintain control of a situation is through contrivances such as unusual dress, unusual ways of speaking, unusual rituals or by having a large entourage. If you analyse each element closely it's clear that they're silly. Why do they need earpieces in when visiting Apple? Why must all the cars match? Why must they dress in the same way? Why do they need to bring all those people, what are they all doing? But the point is, when faced with something new and strange, people often pause and withdraw. This allows you to dominate the situation and prevent dissent.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - jsprogrammer 11y ago
      Earpieces are probably worn routinely, just as many other people you may see walking around. Large organizations typically procure fleets of vehicles that are all the same model. This reduces development and maintenance costs. Many institutions, particularly law enforcement, have strict dress regulations and many distribute their own uniforms appropriate to the particular position.
      - nitrogen 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

hn9780470248775 11y ago

> at least one having MD License Plates Don't vehicles used by federal agencies typically bear U.S. Government license plates?

berkeleynerd 11y ago
According to @HillRat in the other thread : "Based on open sources, NSA has a fleet of about 100 vehicles at most in CONUS, so they would be more likely to fly vehicles cross-country if DIRNSA needed to use a fleet vehicle. Having said that, NSA doesn't just arbitrarily get involved in domestic law enforcement cases, even ones involving crypto, so let's wait to see if there's more evidence than a random HN post to support this allegation." Good information and an entirely fair statement. I'm hoping someone from Apple can chime in directly.
- officemonkey 11y ago
  The majority of federal government travel is done with commercially available rental cars. The likelihood of the federal government driving a GSA-plate vehicle from Maryland to California to meet with Apple is about zero.
  - ethbro 11y ago
    Commercially available rental vehicles seem an extraordinarily bad idea for the NSA to drive to and from sensitive meetings in. What? They just drive silently to and from the meeting or listen to the radio?

berkeleynerd 11y ago

According to my source at Apple HQ a TV van is on the way. We should see some news coverage soon.

archmikhail 11y ago

Save people like me a trip to the Google: NSL = A national security letter (NSL) is an administrative subpoena issued by the United States federal government to gather information for national security purposes. NSLs do not require prior approval from a judge.

iamdave 11y ago
IANAL, but how is it a subpoena if it doesn't originate from the judiciary?
- baddox 11y ago
  I guess you can argue semantics, but it's an order accompanied by a credible threat of violence if the order is not obeyed.
  - aback 11y ago
    I know it requires Tim Cook to be willing to martyr himself, but do we really see Obama whisking the CEO of Apple Computer off to Guantanamo or some supermax prison? I'd maybe call the bluff, and take my political stand.
    - ThrustVectoring 11y ago
      Cook wouldn't have to go that far. The court order specified Apple, not Tim Cook personally. He can simply resign instead of following the court order. For that matter, so can the engineers that Apple would need to work on this project.
      - aback 11y ago
        That's interesting. IANAL but seems like you're missing something. Apple can simply let Employee B take Employee A's place after A quits. When the authorities come for B, B can quit, and Apple can re-hire A. Apple never has to comply.

mapmap 11y ago

"I don't want to be deposed" I'm not familiar with that phrase. What does it mean in this context?

leesalminen 11y ago
A deposition in the American judicial system is a legal proceeding in which a witness provides testimony to the courts. The witness may be examined by members of either sides legal team. This is a routine proceeding in civil cases. [0] Interestingly, people usually don't want to be deposed when they have something to hide. [0] http://litigation.findlaw.com/filing-a-lawsuit/what-is-a-deposition.html http://litigation.findlaw.com/filing-a-lawsuit/what-is-a-dep...
- mintplant 11y ago
  > Interestingly, people usually don't want to be deposed when they have something to hide. Or because the process is a huge hassle to deal with, it sucks up days and days of your time, and it's very easy to mess something up.
- paraxisi 11y ago
  > Interestingly, people usually don't want to be deposed when they have something to hide. That's a pretty... er, dubious claim at best?
  - amalcon 11y ago
    I mean, it's an accurate statement. It's just also true that people usually don't want to be deposed even if they have nothing to hide. The "when they have something to hide" part is just superfluous.
    - alexwebb2 11y ago
      It's not just superfluous, it changes the meaning of the statement. It's like saying "I like women when they aren't driving". You can't follow that up with, "oh, but I also like them when they are driving, so it's okay to say that".

sandworm101 11y ago

Many Apple employees are not allowed to refuse. I suggest that any employee, especially those on any sort of work visa or with any connection to the military/intel community, seek legal advice prior to signing or saying anything. There are big forces involved here that will not hesitate to squash/fire/blacklist little people.

awad 11y ago

Weirdly enough, I saw a blacked out SUV with Virginia plates and a CHP SUV in front of our office at 2nd and Harrison that looked extremely out of place. Among other things, it's a no stop area on our block and there isn't really much here to begin with. It hung out for a few minutes and then made off taking a left on Harrison (101 South, FWIW). This was around 12:30p.

csmajorfive 11y ago

This is all very standard for a VIP visit and the president of Indonesia was at Facebook and Twitter today. So there's probably a simpler, less exciting explanation here.

ianhawes 11y ago

FYI the DOJ/FBI does not utilize Lincoln Town Cars or Escalades for ops. You'll want to keep an eye out for Chevy Impala, Ford Crown Victoria, Chevy Suburban, and in rarer cases Dodge Charger (no spoiler) and GMC Denali. Typically they're darker colors, but the easiest indicator is a massive amount of tint on all windows. Remember, official vehicles will have the default state license plates without any sort of bumper stickers or license plate holders. In Maryland, unmarked LE vehicles typically use an older license plate instead of the newer design.