5 ms·

the article misses everything. lenovo is not even relevant anymore. Their new keyboards (since 2009!) are complete garbage. his "research" was probably asking

by gcb0 11y ago

the article misses everything. lenovo is not even relevant anymore. Their new keyboards (since 2009!) are complete garbage. his "research" was probably asking some guy at the water cooler "what's a good PC laptop" "lenovo" "thanks"

thirdsun 11y ago
That was my impression too. I'm not an expert on Windows hardware/devices but from what I hear the Dell XPS 13 is an excellent machine if you don't want a MacBook. Not even mentioning Dell tells me this guy misses a few things.
- SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
  Fair points. I'm personally not a Dell fan, though I used one for a year that was purchased by my employer, and yes, it didn't completely suck. Just wasn't my first choice. It did fail as a laptop, though. Something about how it tended to bend on a laptop would cause the physical trackpad "button" to get stuck when it was sitting on a lap in some positions until you picked up the laptop by the sides. :| It was also a lot heavier than my Toshiba. But as a portable computer, it actually did a fine job.
- mbrock 11y ago
  I have the XPS 13 Developer Edition, and it's a fine laptop in many ways... But it's marketed as a Linux laptop, yet requires a proprietary WiFi driver. After I upgraded my kernel a month ago, the WiFi started kernel panicking randomly and often, so I don't bother even using the computer anymore... I just use a full screen terminal on my old MacBook and ssh to a VPS. One day I'll reinstall the driver or something, but, god damn, why must everything suck?
  - glogla 11y ago
    How is the touchpad? Is it comparable to Mac? How is the highdpi screen on Linux?
    - mbrock 11y ago
      Oh yeah, the touchpad is frankly awful compared to my MacBook's. I've almost considered disabling it, because I keep brushing against it with my palm causing wild cursor behavior and accidental button presses. It's difficult for me to control even when I do it intentionally. But I don't use the mouse much anyway (hence ratpoison). The HiDPI screen is pretty good, I talked about it in a sibling comment. Chromium understands the DPI setting and so does Xterm, and honestly I don't use any other programs. I imagine if I used different desktop applications, I'd probably run into some issues like maybe icons being too small or something.
      - Aeolos 11y ago
        I don't if this is available on Ubuntu, but recent versions of libinput are way nicer than the old synaptics touchpad driver.
        mbrock 11y ago
        Interesting, thanks!
        abrowne 11y ago
        Yes, for 15.10 (and 16.04) install xserver-xorg-input-libinput, then edit the config files: http://askubuntu.com/questions/649103/proper-touchpad-thumb-palm-detection-with-libinput/678122#678122 http://askubuntu.com/questions/649103/proper-touchpad-thumb-...
  - kingosticks 11y ago
    Presumably this is the older non-skylake model. I heard the new one (9350) will ship with an Intel wireless card which already has support in the kernel. But I don't think it's out yet. I've got the new non-developer version and I did have to jump through some hoops to get the wireless working. And suspend still doesn't work. But other than that it is the best laptop I've used.
  - Terribledactyl 11y ago
    I too was quite frustrated with the wifi card, apparently they've sourced different cards. The Broadcom (I think?) was pure crap in linux, fine in windows. I upgraded to the non bluetooth intel card, everything is fantastic now.
    - mbrock 11y ago
      Yeah, Broadcom. Oh, how did you upgrade? Ask the Dell support?
      - Terribledactyl 11y ago
        I figured out which part people were having luck with, archlinux forums/wiki, and ordered it on amazon. intel 7265ngw + bluetooth. Looks like I went for BT and turned it off in bios. Currently 22$ + 2$ shipping. Maybe 8 torx 5 T-5 needed to be removed, swapped in a few mins.
  - davvid 11y ago
    I have the same laptop. I wanted to run Debian/sid on it so I knew going in that I was going to need to do something about the wireless card. I researched[1] a bit and bought an Intel Wireless 7260 for ~$25, swapped it in, and it made all the difference. The card identifies itself as: 02:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 7260 (rev bb) [1] https://yurovsky.github.io/2015/05/18/dell-xps-13-wifi-linux-intel/ https://yurovsky.github.io/2015/05/18/dell-xps-13-wifi-linux...
    - mbrock 11y ago
      Thanks. The proprietary Broadcom driver worked well enough until it didn't, and now I know firsthand why not to use them, so that's a useful experience at least.
- arthurfm 11y ago
  > Not even mentioning Dell tells me this guy misses a few things. I fully expected to see the (2015) XPS 13 mentioned too and perhaps Microsoft's Surface Book (which could be used as a laptop 100% of the time if required). The way he talked about "Microsoft Surface" made it sound like Microsoft only made the Pro model.
  - ido 11y ago
    I was not even aware of the surface book, and I was recently in the market for a new power user laptop (ended up getting the dell xps 13).
    - jaderobbins1 11y ago
      I just got the new skylake XPS 13 and am loving it. Fantastic hardware.
symmetricsaurus 11y ago
I don't agree at all with the new Thinkpad keyboards being garbage. The old ones were nice (maybe even nicer than the new ones) but the new ones are still the best laptop keyboards in the market at the moment. The keyboard has no flex or mushiness. The keys have some resistance and a nice feel when depressing them. Finally the keys are slightly curved inwards so that the fingesrs easily find the centers of the keys. Still, I've heard of a lot of people that don't like the new keyboards. Maybe there are different versions for different models? I've only used W530 and T440s.
- gcb0 11y ago
  wow, honestly, you are one of the first people i hear talking good things about the concave-chiclet-keys. Good to know it. for me the keys are already too spaced out and the travel is so low and i would have welcomed flat or convex keys. ideally less space (so larger keys) and convex to prevent mistype.
- noisy_boy 11y ago
  No dedicated function keys are the worst decision lenovo made. Kind of a pain in the ass when one is trying to avoid using the mouse (which most developers working for long periods tend to do).
  - polymeris 11y ago
    At least on mine, you can use Fn-Esc to engage "FnLk" and use the F keys as default. Also, somewhat related you can swap Ctrl and Fn in the BIOS if you prefer your Ctrl key to be in the bottom left, like me.
  - lorenzhs 11y ago
    For me the keys default to F1-F12 and multimedia functions require the Fn key. Works pretty well, I don't use the multimedia keys except for adjusting volume (this is a Desktop machine with the USB version of the keyboard, on a laptop the brightness keys would be relevant as well). Considering how often I hit F<something> (a lot!) and how often I adjust the volume (rarely) this works very well for me. Instead, I miss the double-height escape and delete key, and PgUp/PgDown near the top of the keyboard. They're next to the arrow keys now, which isn't as nice as the back/forward buttons that used to be there.
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
Did you somehow just read the paragraph where he was disappointed with Lenovo, and miss the entire rest of the blog post where he was also disappointed with a bunch of other manufacturers?
- gcb0 11y ago
  he barelly mention asus, toshiba, dell, sony, etc. and all those are already better know then lenovo for linux (& windows) laptops for some years. i'd even rater a surface than a lenovo nowadays. ...just get me the pen and gpu working fine in linux and i bite the bullet btw. anyway, with lenovo everything is wrong. with the other manufacturers just the flood of models and the sales is wrong :) ok, basically i agree with his post in full. i just wouldn't have spent so much time on lenovo.
tetheno 11y ago
Lenovo is the #1 PC manufacturer in the world. Their new keyboards were released in 2011-2012 and they're not garbage at all.

by gcb0 11y ago

thirdsun 11y ago

That was my impression too. I'm not an expert on Windows hardware/devices but from what I hear the Dell XPS 13 is an excellent machine if you don't want a MacBook. Not even mentioning Dell tells me this guy misses a few things.

SomeCallMeTim 11y ago
Fair points. I'm personally not a Dell fan, though I used one for a year that was purchased by my employer, and yes, it didn't completely suck. Just wasn't my first choice. It did fail as a laptop, though. Something about how it tended to bend on a laptop would cause the physical trackpad "button" to get stuck when it was sitting on a lap in some positions until you picked up the laptop by the sides. :| It was also a lot heavier than my Toshiba. But as a portable computer, it actually did a fine job.
mbrock 11y ago
I have the XPS 13 Developer Edition, and it's a fine laptop in many ways... But it's marketed as a Linux laptop, yet requires a proprietary WiFi driver. After I upgraded my kernel a month ago, the WiFi started kernel panicking randomly and often, so I don't bother even using the computer anymore... I just use a full screen terminal on my old MacBook and ssh to a VPS. One day I'll reinstall the driver or something, but, god damn, why must everything suck?
- glogla 11y ago
  How is the touchpad? Is it comparable to Mac? How is the highdpi screen on Linux?
  - mbrock 11y ago
    Oh yeah, the touchpad is frankly awful compared to my MacBook's. I've almost considered disabling it, because I keep brushing against it with my palm causing wild cursor behavior and accidental button presses. It's difficult for me to control even when I do it intentionally. But I don't use the mouse much anyway (hence ratpoison). The HiDPI screen is pretty good, I talked about it in a sibling comment. Chromium understands the DPI setting and so does Xterm, and honestly I don't use any other programs. I imagine if I used different desktop applications, I'd probably run into some issues like maybe icons being too small or something.
    - Aeolos 11y ago
      I don't if this is available on Ubuntu, but recent versions of libinput are way nicer than the old synaptics touchpad driver.
      - mbrock 11y ago
        Interesting, thanks!
      - abrowne 11y ago
        Yes, for 15.10 (and 16.04) install xserver-xorg-input-libinput, then edit the config files: http://askubuntu.com/questions/649103/proper-touchpad-thumb-palm-detection-with-libinput/678122#678122 http://askubuntu.com/questions/649103/proper-touchpad-thumb-...
- kingosticks 11y ago
  Presumably this is the older non-skylake model. I heard the new one (9350) will ship with an Intel wireless card which already has support in the kernel. But I don't think it's out yet. I've got the new non-developer version and I did have to jump through some hoops to get the wireless working. And suspend still doesn't work. But other than that it is the best laptop I've used.
- Terribledactyl 11y ago
  I too was quite frustrated with the wifi card, apparently they've sourced different cards. The Broadcom (I think?) was pure crap in linux, fine in windows. I upgraded to the non bluetooth intel card, everything is fantastic now.
  - mbrock 11y ago
    Yeah, Broadcom. Oh, how did you upgrade? Ask the Dell support?
    - Terribledactyl 11y ago
      I figured out which part people were having luck with, archlinux forums/wiki, and ordered it on amazon. intel 7265ngw + bluetooth. Looks like I went for BT and turned it off in bios. Currently 22$ + 2$ shipping. Maybe 8 torx 5 T-5 needed to be removed, swapped in a few mins.
- davvid 11y ago
  I have the same laptop. I wanted to run Debian/sid on it so I knew going in that I was going to need to do something about the wireless card. I researched[1] a bit and bought an Intel Wireless 7260 for ~$25, swapped it in, and it made all the difference. The card identifies itself as: 02:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Wireless 7260 (rev bb) [1] https://yurovsky.github.io/2015/05/18/dell-xps-13-wifi-linux-intel/ https://yurovsky.github.io/2015/05/18/dell-xps-13-wifi-linux...
  - mbrock 11y ago
    Thanks. The proprietary Broadcom driver worked well enough until it didn't, and now I know firsthand why not to use them, so that's a useful experience at least.
arthurfm 11y ago
> Not even mentioning Dell tells me this guy misses a few things. I fully expected to see the (2015) XPS 13 mentioned too and perhaps Microsoft's Surface Book (which could be used as a laptop 100% of the time if required). The way he talked about "Microsoft Surface" made it sound like Microsoft only made the Pro model.
- ido 11y ago
  I was not even aware of the surface book, and I was recently in the market for a new power user laptop (ended up getting the dell xps 13).
  - jaderobbins1 11y ago
    I just got the new skylake XPS 13 and am loving it. Fantastic hardware.

symmetricsaurus 11y ago

I don't agree at all with the new Thinkpad keyboards being garbage. The old ones were nice (maybe even nicer than the new ones) but the new ones are still the best laptop keyboards in the market at the moment. The keyboard has no flex or mushiness. The keys have some resistance and a nice feel when depressing them. Finally the keys are slightly curved inwards so that the fingesrs easily find the centers of the keys. Still, I've heard of a lot of people that don't like the new keyboards. Maybe there are different versions for different models? I've only used W530 and T440s.

gcb0 11y ago
wow, honestly, you are one of the first people i hear talking good things about the concave-chiclet-keys. Good to know it. for me the keys are already too spaced out and the travel is so low and i would have welcomed flat or convex keys. ideally less space (so larger keys) and convex to prevent mistype.
noisy_boy 11y ago
No dedicated function keys are the worst decision lenovo made. Kind of a pain in the ass when one is trying to avoid using the mouse (which most developers working for long periods tend to do).
- polymeris 11y ago
  At least on mine, you can use Fn-Esc to engage "FnLk" and use the F keys as default. Also, somewhat related you can swap Ctrl and Fn in the BIOS if you prefer your Ctrl key to be in the bottom left, like me.
- lorenzhs 11y ago
  For me the keys default to F1-F12 and multimedia functions require the Fn key. Works pretty well, I don't use the multimedia keys except for adjusting volume (this is a Desktop machine with the USB version of the keyboard, on a laptop the brightness keys would be relevant as well). Considering how often I hit F<something> (a lot!) and how often I adjust the volume (rarely) this works very well for me. Instead, I miss the double-height escape and delete key, and PgUp/PgDown near the top of the keyboard. They're next to the arrow keys now, which isn't as nice as the back/forward buttons that used to be there.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

Did you somehow just read the paragraph where he was disappointed with Lenovo, and miss the entire rest of the blog post where he was also disappointed with a bunch of other manufacturers?

gcb0 11y ago
he barelly mention asus, toshiba, dell, sony, etc. and all those are already better know then lenovo for linux (& windows) laptops for some years. i'd even rater a surface than a lenovo nowadays. ...just get me the pen and gpu working fine in linux and i bite the bullet btw. anyway, with lenovo everything is wrong. with the other manufacturers just the flood of models and the sales is wrong :) ok, basically i agree with his post in full. i just wouldn't have spent so much time on lenovo.

tetheno 11y ago

Lenovo is the #1 PC manufacturer in the world. Their new keyboards were released in 2011-2012 and they're not garbage at all.