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What is the difference between debtors prison and a court system that will rule on a debt, create a court order to pay, and then arrest you for not paying? It

What is the difference between debtors prison and a court system that will rule on a debt, create a court order to pay, and then arrest you for not paying? It sounds like the same thing by another name.

fiatmoney 11y ago
He was "arrested" in the sense that he was brought into court and forced to show compliance with the court's order (in this case, by signing a payment plan). He was not "imprisoned for a debt". There are legal mechanisms to show inability to pay & the court order is supposed to reflect that, even for non-dischargable debts.
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  So debtors prison with a bit of leeway for those determined by the court to be unable to pay the debt. Which means if the court rules wrongly (which does happen), you can end up with being imprisoned for debt. Also, I realize in this case he was just arrested and not imprisoned. I wasn't speaking to just this exact case.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    end up with being imprisoned for debt. The arrest wasn't for debt either, it was for ignoring a court order. I guess if you don't think there should be any legal mechanism to address non payment of debts then courts shouldn't be involved, but refusing or otherwise failing to participate in the legal process is not the same thing as just failing to pay a debt.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      >The arrest The, as in specifying a specific arrest. As I said, I'm talking in general, not in this particular case.
      - maxerickson 11y ago
        Right, that doesn't seem to happen. People are getting dragged to court because they have failed to answer a court order, but they aren't getting dragged to court and then tossed in jail because they stopped paying their credit card or mortgage. Which hey, those are some pretty shitty situations, but why aren't they appearing in court when ordered?
        Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        >Right, that doesn't seem to happen. So people aren't put in jail for failing to follow court orders that require them to pay money? That goes against the numerous news reports I've read of that happening. Now, some portion of those jailed may have the means to pay and choose not to. I would guess a large portion falls into that group. But I am highly doubtful that it is 100%.
        adventured 11y ago
        No, people are defaulting on student loans in record numbers presently, as the huge cost inflation wave of the last 10-15 years is overwhelming the debtors. They aren't being put in jail for non-payment. We'd have a million more people in jail right now if that were the case. Ignore a court order? Well that will get you arrested eventually.
        Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        (I would edit my other post but it is now too old). >Which hey, those are some pretty shitty situations, but why aren't they appearing in court when ordered? Based on another post I made, it appears that it can happen because they aren't notified because the official process to notify them only goes so far and if they have an old address or some incorrect information, you may never receive the summons.
- mywittyname 11y ago
  This man absolutely was imprisoned for debt. Being compelled by the court to either pay your debt or go to prison is, by very definition, being imprisoned for failure to pay a debt. The court should have ordered the seizure of bank assets to cover the debt. In no way should owning money ever result in jail time, fines, judgements or otherwise.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    What do you see as the threat to go to prison? He was certainly compelled to appear in court (at what is probably a great waste of taxpayer resources), but after that appearance, I don't see where he would be detained if he didn't agree to pay the debt.
  - greggyb 11y ago
    From the fine article, emphasis mine: > He says seven deputy US Marshals showed up at his home with guns and took him to federal court where he had to sign a payment plan for the 29-year-old school loan. He was not taken to prison, he was arrested. These are wildly different actions. Nowhere in the article do the strings "prison", "jail", "gaol", "cell", "penitentiary" or any other synonym for prison appear. There is plenty of discussion elsewhere in the HN comments on what may have led to this arrest.
    - kels 11y ago
      In the video he said he was placed in a 4x4 cell for an hour before being taken to a judge. He said no one read his rights or allowed him to get representation.
    - mywittyname 11y ago
      A more thorough article: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-marshals-arresting-people-not-paying-student-loans-article-1.2533153 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-marshals-arrest... > Aker said he was put in the back of a truck and placed in a cell at the federal building in downtown Houston. > Aker told The News that he was ordered to pay $5,700 for the loan, including interest. However, Aker was also ordered to pay for the cost of the morning arrest — nearly $1,300. > If he didn't pay that amount by March 1, he said, he was told he would be arrested again. Wonder what will happen when he's arrested again when he can't come up with $7000 in two weeks.
- patcheudor 11y ago
  Here's a good article on the issue of debtors prison. I find it particularly telling that putting someone in actual jail for failure to pay a debt is considered a human rights violation. IMHO, if someone is capable of paying and isn't, the most action which should be taken is to garnish their wages. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/02/24/debtors-prisons-then-and-now-faq#.anUSMTyFL https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/02/24/debtors-prison...
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    The problem is that there is no absolute objective way to determine if someone is able to pay. For example, the court may rule that a person is working reduced wages so they do not have to pay as much, and thus they are required to get a better job. I read of a few cases where this happened in regards to child support during the economic downturn with the court not correctly judging the ability of a person to get a new job at the same level as a previous job they held.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    Here's a BBC Radio Four programme that talks about the small towns in Missouri and their excessive use of traffic violations as a revenue generating scheme. It's a good programme, and worth a lsiten. (As are others in the series!) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm > Are excessive traffic fines and debtors' jails fuelling community tensions in suburban Missouri? Claire Bolderson reports on a network of ninety separate cities in St Louis County, most of which have their own courts and police forces. Critics say that their size makes them financially unviable and allege that some of them boost their incomes by fining their own citizens and locking them up when they can't pay. > This edition of Crossing Continents goes out and about in St Louis County to meet the people who say they are victims of a system which sees arrest warrants issued for relatively minor misdemeanours. Many of the victims are poor and black. The programme also takes us into the courts, and out onto the freeways with some of the County's police, who say they are upholding the law and promoting road safety. > The US government is not so sure. One of the towns in question is Ferguson where riots erupted after a white police officer shot a young black man dead last summer. In a recent report on the riots, the Department of Justice concluded that the Ferguson police had been stopping people for no good reason. It said they were putting revenue before public safety. > Claire Bolderson investigates how widespread the practice is and considers the impact on relations between citizens and the authorities that govern them.
morgante 11y ago
The part where you don't serve any time in jail. The court can compel you to appear court and explain yourself, but they can't throw you in jail for not paying. All they compelled him to do was sign a payment plan (which he can and likely will ignore).
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  They can order you to pay, and then if you fail to pay, you can be put in jail. This did not happen in this case, but I'm not focusing on a single case. It has happened before in other cases, and I'm talking about the general principal. Now, as others have pointed out, the court is supposed to decide what you should be able to pay, and thus ideally you are never forced to pay more than you can afford. But the court does make errors and often people don't have equal access to help on the matters, and thus you can end up with people being required to pay more than they have access to. This can end up with them in jail, and thus we do have debtor prisons, even if they aren't quite as bad as debtor prisons of the past.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > This did not happen in this case, but I'm not focusing on a single case. That's the thing: I have never heard of a single case where someone was imprisoned for not paying debts in the modern United States. Instead of talking in the abstract, please provide a single citation of someone imprisoned for failing to pay back a loan.
    - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
      Just to be clear, if in an example the jailed individual is put in jail for failing to follow a court order, but that court order was to repay a debt resulting from a loan, would you accept that example? If not, where is the difference between that and the example you are requesting?
      - morgante 11y ago
        Sure, if someone is serving jail time in the US for failing to pay a loan then I'd love to see it (even if that loan was backed by a court order). However, being arrested for failing to appear in court or otherwise being in contempt of court would not qualify.

fiatmoney 11y ago

He was "arrested" in the sense that he was brought into court and forced to show compliance with the court's order (in this case, by signing a payment plan). He was not "imprisoned for a debt". There are legal mechanisms to show inability to pay & the court order is supposed to reflect that, even for non-dischargable debts.

Lawtonfogle 11y ago
So debtors prison with a bit of leeway for those determined by the court to be unable to pay the debt. Which means if the court rules wrongly (which does happen), you can end up with being imprisoned for debt. Also, I realize in this case he was just arrested and not imprisoned. I wasn't speaking to just this exact case.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  end up with being imprisoned for debt. The arrest wasn't for debt either, it was for ignoring a court order. I guess if you don't think there should be any legal mechanism to address non payment of debts then courts shouldn't be involved, but refusing or otherwise failing to participate in the legal process is not the same thing as just failing to pay a debt.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    >The arrest The, as in specifying a specific arrest. As I said, I'm talking in general, not in this particular case.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      Right, that doesn't seem to happen. People are getting dragged to court because they have failed to answer a court order, but they aren't getting dragged to court and then tossed in jail because they stopped paying their credit card or mortgage. Which hey, those are some pretty shitty situations, but why aren't they appearing in court when ordered?
      - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        >Right, that doesn't seem to happen. So people aren't put in jail for failing to follow court orders that require them to pay money? That goes against the numerous news reports I've read of that happening. Now, some portion of those jailed may have the means to pay and choose not to. I would guess a large portion falls into that group. But I am highly doubtful that it is 100%.
        adventured 11y ago
        No, people are defaulting on student loans in record numbers presently, as the huge cost inflation wave of the last 10-15 years is overwhelming the debtors. They aren't being put in jail for non-payment. We'd have a million more people in jail right now if that were the case. Ignore a court order? Well that will get you arrested eventually.
      - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
        (I would edit my other post but it is now too old). >Which hey, those are some pretty shitty situations, but why aren't they appearing in court when ordered? Based on another post I made, it appears that it can happen because they aren't notified because the official process to notify them only goes so far and if they have an old address or some incorrect information, you may never receive the summons.
mywittyname 11y ago
This man absolutely was imprisoned for debt. Being compelled by the court to either pay your debt or go to prison is, by very definition, being imprisoned for failure to pay a debt. The court should have ordered the seizure of bank assets to cover the debt. In no way should owning money ever result in jail time, fines, judgements or otherwise.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  What do you see as the threat to go to prison? He was certainly compelled to appear in court (at what is probably a great waste of taxpayer resources), but after that appearance, I don't see where he would be detained if he didn't agree to pay the debt.
- greggyb 11y ago
  From the fine article, emphasis mine: > He says seven deputy US Marshals showed up at his home with guns and took him to federal court where he had to sign a payment plan for the 29-year-old school loan. He was not taken to prison, he was arrested. These are wildly different actions. Nowhere in the article do the strings "prison", "jail", "gaol", "cell", "penitentiary" or any other synonym for prison appear. There is plenty of discussion elsewhere in the HN comments on what may have led to this arrest.
  - kels 11y ago
    In the video he said he was placed in a 4x4 cell for an hour before being taken to a judge. He said no one read his rights or allowed him to get representation.
  - mywittyname 11y ago
    A more thorough article: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-marshals-arresting-people-not-paying-student-loans-article-1.2533153 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/u-s-marshals-arrest... > Aker said he was put in the back of a truck and placed in a cell at the federal building in downtown Houston. > Aker told The News that he was ordered to pay $5,700 for the loan, including interest. However, Aker was also ordered to pay for the cost of the morning arrest — nearly $1,300. > If he didn't pay that amount by March 1, he said, he was told he would be arrested again. Wonder what will happen when he's arrested again when he can't come up with $7000 in two weeks.
patcheudor 11y ago
Here's a good article on the issue of debtors prison. I find it particularly telling that putting someone in actual jail for failure to pay a debt is considered a human rights violation. IMHO, if someone is capable of paying and isn't, the most action which should be taken is to garnish their wages. https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/02/24/debtors-prisons-then-and-now-faq#.anUSMTyFL https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/02/24/debtors-prison...
- Lawtonfogle 11y ago
  The problem is that there is no absolute objective way to determine if someone is able to pay. For example, the court may rule that a person is working reduced wages so they do not have to pay as much, and thus they are required to get a better job. I read of a few cases where this happened in regards to child support during the economic downturn with the court not correctly judging the ability of a person to get a new job at the same level as a previous job they held.
- DanBC 11y ago
  Here's a BBC Radio Four programme that talks about the small towns in Missouri and their excessive use of traffic violations as a revenue generating scheme. It's a good programme, and worth a lsiten. (As are others in the series!) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05pqskm > Are excessive traffic fines and debtors' jails fuelling community tensions in suburban Missouri? Claire Bolderson reports on a network of ninety separate cities in St Louis County, most of which have their own courts and police forces. Critics say that their size makes them financially unviable and allege that some of them boost their incomes by fining their own citizens and locking them up when they can't pay. > This edition of Crossing Continents goes out and about in St Louis County to meet the people who say they are victims of a system which sees arrest warrants issued for relatively minor misdemeanours. Many of the victims are poor and black. The programme also takes us into the courts, and out onto the freeways with some of the County's police, who say they are upholding the law and promoting road safety. > The US government is not so sure. One of the towns in question is Ferguson where riots erupted after a white police officer shot a young black man dead last summer. In a recent report on the riots, the Department of Justice concluded that the Ferguson police had been stopping people for no good reason. It said they were putting revenue before public safety. > Claire Bolderson investigates how widespread the practice is and considers the impact on relations between citizens and the authorities that govern them.

morgante 11y ago

The part where you don't serve any time in jail. The court can compel you to appear court and explain yourself, but they can't throw you in jail for not paying. All they compelled him to do was sign a payment plan (which he can and likely will ignore).

Lawtonfogle 11y ago
They can order you to pay, and then if you fail to pay, you can be put in jail. This did not happen in this case, but I'm not focusing on a single case. It has happened before in other cases, and I'm talking about the general principal. Now, as others have pointed out, the court is supposed to decide what you should be able to pay, and thus ideally you are never forced to pay more than you can afford. But the court does make errors and often people don't have equal access to help on the matters, and thus you can end up with people being required to pay more than they have access to. This can end up with them in jail, and thus we do have debtor prisons, even if they aren't quite as bad as debtor prisons of the past.
- morgante 11y ago
  > This did not happen in this case, but I'm not focusing on a single case. That's the thing: I have never heard of a single case where someone was imprisoned for not paying debts in the modern United States. Instead of talking in the abstract, please provide a single citation of someone imprisoned for failing to pay back a loan.
  - Lawtonfogle 11y ago
    Just to be clear, if in an example the jailed individual is put in jail for failing to follow a court order, but that court order was to repay a debt resulting from a loan, would you accept that example? If not, where is the difference between that and the example you are requesting?
    - morgante 11y ago
      Sure, if someone is serving jail time in the US for failing to pay a loan then I'd love to see it (even if that loan was backed by a court order). However, being arrested for failing to appear in court or otherwise being in contempt of court would not qualify.