6 ms·

As an outsider to the USA housing market (that seems to be very heavily regulated), could someone explain the significance of what is alleged here? More to the

As an outsider to the USA housing market (that seems to be very heavily regulated), could someone explain the significance of what is alleged here? More to the point, why are multi-listings of whole houses a bad thing?

pmikesell 11y ago
I think it's because it suggests that professional landlords / developers are using the platform to sidestep rent control laws, as opposed to regular people just renting out their homes while they are away on vacation.
- brcs77 11y ago
  And so what if they are? Have them pay the proper taxes then. Win-win for the property owner and the city.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    There is issues of locals being 'displaced' in places like NYC because it often is more profitable for landlords to rent on Airbnb rather than rent traditionally. The real big deal is tenants have lots of rights whereas transients do not, so it creates even more incentives to ditch the locals in favor of Airbnb guests. Then you can argue "why shouldn't NYC turn into a city of transients?" Which is probably more of a personal opinion if that is "wrong" or not. To the GP: The other thing to mention is in the US housing regulations are incredibly local so you're going to find a huge difference in different cities in how regulated rentals are. You will read online mostly about NYC of SF which have their unique problems.
  - calbear81 11y ago
    Zoning laws are not simply about taxes. What if your neighbor decided to open a nightclub out of his garage one day, would it be okay as long as they paid taxes? The externalities imposed have to be accounted for.
    - dalke 11y ago
      Nor is it only about zoning laws. A nightclub, or under-the-table hotel, will likely be subject to laws like the ADA, additional fire codes, health inspections, and more. These are tangential to paying taxes.
  - sdoering 11y ago
    So what? Let the strongest do as they please - very democratic, indeed. Just because you could tax them and the city might profit doesn't automatically invalidate the reasoning behind the current rules banning practices like this in the first place. Maybe the reasoning is flawed. OK - then prove it, lobby for a change, but not just do as you wish and ignore the current laws because they are in the way of your business model. This kind of disruptive thinking is a slippery slope imho. And I could argue lot's of evil with this line of thought.
    - brbrodude 11y ago
      I'm at a point where I've given up arguing, and maybe hoping, too. If anything history proves that the powerful do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Now as more and more democracy is eaten by monetary power I feel only what's left to do is to wait for the big shock.. It's sad to think that even when people dedicate their time pro-bono to building tools and information medium like this, at most what it does is moderate temporarilly the recklessness of one group at the expense of very limited resources of others(like the free-time, dedication, small-money that people make available for this kind of stuff) but while there's money to make in subverting it there'll always be incentive to push the way through and put much more money, time and resources into doing it, if someone call you out you can just tone it down a bit and start over another day, seems like there's no winning. I'm brasilian and understand the the judiciary of USA is stronger and faster than in other country, but even then still this logic prevails, for elsewhere and where I'm at.. eh, dreadful.
      - conceit 11y ago
        > If anything history proves that the powerful do what they can and the weak suffer what they must That's simply a truism, tautology, it's true by definition of the words used.
- femto113 11y ago
  To expand on this somewhat, Airbnb likes to pretend their business is about the unregulated and largely legal practice of people renting out an extra room, or perhaps every once in a while their whole vacant home for a short period of time when they happen not to be home. What everyone suspects but struggles to prove without access to the data is that most of their business is people renting out apartments they don't live in but instead rent out full time. This potentially runs afoul of many laws, in some cities rent control rules may be the main issue, in others they may be considered an unlicensed hotel which could violate tax or zoning laws.
JoshTriplett 11y ago
(Note: not taking a position in this post, just describing both positions.) Many people unhappy with AirBnB want to portray AirBnB as primarily a means for large-scale commercial landlords to circumvent regulations on hotels, renting, or subletting; such a depiction makes it easier to argue for more regulation. A large number of people posting multiple "entire home" listings would lend support to that depiction. AirBnB wants to portray themselves as primarily letting individual people rent out their own property or rooms; such a depiction makes it easier to argue against existing or additional regulations. A large number of people posting only a single "entire home" listing, or listings of individual rooms in a home, would lend support to that depiction. The site linked here claims that AirBnB removed many "entire home" listings from their site right before producing a report, and that the removed listings disproportionately reduced the number of listings by people with more than one "entire home" listing. The linked site further claims that those removals only occurred in NYC, and the graph suggests that the proportion immediately started growing again after the removals and subsequent report.
- kafkaesq 11y ago
  Such a depiction makes it easier to argue for more regulation. Or for existing regulations to be enforced. (There's no need to depict Airbnb skeptics as inherently "pro"-regulation, and instinctively wanting more of it).
  - JoshTriplett 11y ago
    I'd intended that to be a broad statement: "more regulation" can mean either additional regulations or broader interpretation/enforcement of existing regulations. Either approach has the effect that anti-AirBnB folks want to see AirBnB more regulated, and AirBnB and pro-AirBnB folks want to see AirBnB less regulated.
    - kafkaesq 11y ago
      Then there's people who just want existing regulations to be enforced in their current scope. Which, BTW, isn't an "anti"-AirBnB position at all.

pmikesell 11y ago

I think it's because it suggests that professional landlords / developers are using the platform to sidestep rent control laws, as opposed to regular people just renting out their homes while they are away on vacation.

brcs77 11y ago
And so what if they are? Have them pay the proper taxes then. Win-win for the property owner and the city.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  There is issues of locals being 'displaced' in places like NYC because it often is more profitable for landlords to rent on Airbnb rather than rent traditionally. The real big deal is tenants have lots of rights whereas transients do not, so it creates even more incentives to ditch the locals in favor of Airbnb guests. Then you can argue "why shouldn't NYC turn into a city of transients?" Which is probably more of a personal opinion if that is "wrong" or not. To the GP: The other thing to mention is in the US housing regulations are incredibly local so you're going to find a huge difference in different cities in how regulated rentals are. You will read online mostly about NYC of SF which have their unique problems.
- calbear81 11y ago
  Zoning laws are not simply about taxes. What if your neighbor decided to open a nightclub out of his garage one day, would it be okay as long as they paid taxes? The externalities imposed have to be accounted for.
  - dalke 11y ago
    Nor is it only about zoning laws. A nightclub, or under-the-table hotel, will likely be subject to laws like the ADA, additional fire codes, health inspections, and more. These are tangential to paying taxes.
- sdoering 11y ago
  So what? Let the strongest do as they please - very democratic, indeed. Just because you could tax them and the city might profit doesn't automatically invalidate the reasoning behind the current rules banning practices like this in the first place. Maybe the reasoning is flawed. OK - then prove it, lobby for a change, but not just do as you wish and ignore the current laws because they are in the way of your business model. This kind of disruptive thinking is a slippery slope imho. And I could argue lot's of evil with this line of thought.
  - brbrodude 11y ago
    I'm at a point where I've given up arguing, and maybe hoping, too. If anything history proves that the powerful do what they can and the weak suffer what they must. Now as more and more democracy is eaten by monetary power I feel only what's left to do is to wait for the big shock.. It's sad to think that even when people dedicate their time pro-bono to building tools and information medium like this, at most what it does is moderate temporarilly the recklessness of one group at the expense of very limited resources of others(like the free-time, dedication, small-money that people make available for this kind of stuff) but while there's money to make in subverting it there'll always be incentive to push the way through and put much more money, time and resources into doing it, if someone call you out you can just tone it down a bit and start over another day, seems like there's no winning. I'm brasilian and understand the the judiciary of USA is stronger and faster than in other country, but even then still this logic prevails, for elsewhere and where I'm at.. eh, dreadful.
    - conceit 11y ago
      > If anything history proves that the powerful do what they can and the weak suffer what they must That's simply a truism, tautology, it's true by definition of the words used.
femto113 11y ago
To expand on this somewhat, Airbnb likes to pretend their business is about the unregulated and largely legal practice of people renting out an extra room, or perhaps every once in a while their whole vacant home for a short period of time when they happen not to be home. What everyone suspects but struggles to prove without access to the data is that most of their business is people renting out apartments they don't live in but instead rent out full time. This potentially runs afoul of many laws, in some cities rent control rules may be the main issue, in others they may be considered an unlicensed hotel which could violate tax or zoning laws.

JoshTriplett 11y ago

(Note: not taking a position in this post, just describing both positions.) Many people unhappy with AirBnB want to portray AirBnB as primarily a means for large-scale commercial landlords to circumvent regulations on hotels, renting, or subletting; such a depiction makes it easier to argue for more regulation. A large number of people posting multiple "entire home" listings would lend support to that depiction. AirBnB wants to portray themselves as primarily letting individual people rent out their own property or rooms; such a depiction makes it easier to argue against existing or additional regulations. A large number of people posting only a single "entire home" listing, or listings of individual rooms in a home, would lend support to that depiction. The site linked here claims that AirBnB removed many "entire home" listings from their site right before producing a report, and that the removed listings disproportionately reduced the number of listings by people with more than one "entire home" listing. The linked site further claims that those removals only occurred in NYC, and the graph suggests that the proportion immediately started growing again after the removals and subsequent report.

kafkaesq 11y ago
Such a depiction makes it easier to argue for more regulation. Or for existing regulations to be enforced. (There's no need to depict Airbnb skeptics as inherently "pro"-regulation, and instinctively wanting more of it).
- JoshTriplett 11y ago
  I'd intended that to be a broad statement: "more regulation" can mean either additional regulations or broader interpretation/enforcement of existing regulations. Either approach has the effect that anti-AirBnB folks want to see AirBnB more regulated, and AirBnB and pro-AirBnB folks want to see AirBnB less regulated.
  - kafkaesq 11y ago
    Then there's people who just want existing regulations to be enforced in their current scope. Which, BTW, isn't an "anti"-AirBnB position at all.