6 ms·

Having spent much time in Paris during my lifetime, and far more in France itself, I'm very doubtful of this piece. In my entire life, I've only met one rude se

Having spent much time in Paris during my lifetime, and far more in France itself, I'm very doubtful of this piece. In my entire life, I've only met one rude service provider in France and incidentally he was Croatian and despite speaking fluent French he had a heavy accent I couldn't understand. I have a strong suspicion the author of this piece is violating basic etiquette on a regular basis. The key to the French is to start any conversation with 'Bonjour' regardless of if you know French or not, because 90% of the time you won't even get a chance to use a second word in French, especially in Paris where virtually everyone in the tourist areas speak decent English. I remember me and my wife were in a little bistro near the Eiffel Tower, I took the lead and ordered. I got about half-way through before the waiter interrupted me and let me finish my order in English as it made it easier for both of us. Two or three tables down we saw an American couple (I'm guessing New York area by the accents), they got the same waiter as I did, but they said 'hello' and started trying to order in English. The waiter played coy, he didn't let on he knew English their entire meal, I think it took them 5-minutes to get through the entire order with him. I find it quite moronic that people visit a foreign country and don't even bother to learn how to introduce themselves. I expect non-English immigrants to my country to at least know some basics, and 99% of them seem to. However the majority of English-speakers who go to France invite this trouble onto themselves by not even bothering to use a single word of the native language. I've been to France, Spain (and several Spanish islands where dialects and customs differ a fair amount), Portugal and Turkey and I've never had this problem, because I always introduce myself in the local language. I remember getting a discount on speedboat rental in Turkey, the guy stopped us speaking Turkish (quite thankfully, because I think we got through the A-material in the first 3-words) and explained in English that we're one of the few 'Anglo's' in months to actually try speaking Turkish. Common courtesy in a foreign country goes a long way, but most people are too ignorant to understand. In France, Spain, Portugal and Turkey if you spoke the local language, people appeared to bend over backwards to help you because you just showed them immense respect, not just personal respect but to their nation too.

lyudmil 17y ago
Everywhere I have ever lived (the US and Europe) I noticed the same principles apply. If you approach people humbly, grateful for their willingness to share their culture with you, you will always get a positive response. Learning the local language, following the accepted social norms, and eating the local food will always go a long way. In fact, if you don't do most of those things to at least some extent, what's the point of being somewhere different?
scscsc 17y ago
In my experience, service in Paris is inferior to almost every other place i've been to. People simply can't be bothered to be helpful. They always have better things to do, like finishing the conversation with their spouse, texting the boyfriend, biting the nails, etc. That is, unless you're a good looking piece of ass, in which case you might get a nice i wanna do you smile. The French do indeed expect you to address them in French (in my experience, the ones that speak good English will have no problem with English though; very few of these though). And they simply have a different mindset. The waiter doesn't give a shit about you since (s)he is paid the same thing. The sellers in stores don't give a shit about whether you buy or not -- they get paid the same. They endorse random strikes, etc. You just have to learn to live with it. There are good things about Paris. And I have seen good service in France, with trained waiters; the trick is that the bill/person can run up to 100 euros in such places.
- papersmith 17y ago
  This actually sounds like China before the privatization of the service industry in the 90s, and I suspect it's similar in other communist countries. Back then store clerks were paid government wages with benefits, and most of time they would ignore customers even after you called them out. As a kid, I once went alone to buy an imported Gundam action figure with my savings and they made snide comments about my family being ostentatious. Now-a-days in private establishments they go to ridiculous lengths to provide good services, it's almost surreal. Once in a restaurant my cousin found a tiny caterpillar on a vegetable dish (hey, no pesticide!) and the manager came out to apologize and offered the meal for three free of charge.
timwiseman 17y ago
You have some excellent points, and I think I learned some interesting things from your post. I must disagree with one sentences though: I expect non-English immigrants to my country to at least know some basics, and 99% of them seem to. I think this depends on where in the US you are, but where I live there are many people that seem to know absolutely no English at all, even after living here for many years. They seem to insulate themselves through friends and family that can speak English. This slightly annoys me actually when I have to deal with it. I know some people are just learning English and I know some are tourists who will never master it, and I will bend over backwards to understand and help someone that is making an effort (when I visited Mexico I know my Spanish was atrocious every time I tried, so I sympathize with them). But when they have been here for a long time and made no effort to learn the language, I find it..irksome.
- electromagnetic 17y ago
  The percentage will definitely be off, it was based on my personal experience growing up in northern England. The same seems to apply here in Ontario, however I would expect it to be different along a cultural border. You can see it here in Ontario with Americans entering, but it's surprising how much speaking a common language has an effect on interactions. It's very noticeable in Europe at the countries borders due to the schengen area laws. Although when you accidentally arrive in Switzerland and know none of the language, I know I personally feel like a complete ass.
Vitaly 17y ago
This is ridiculous. The waiter pretended not to know English just because a tourist said 'hello' instead of 'Bonjour'? WTF? An example of a waiter being an ass. And I think a very good example continuing the theme of the original post. I see absolutely no reason to say 'hello' in language X if I'm going to proceed speaking English. I'm trying to communicate, not to impress with my language knowledge. This just doesn't make sense. Hello is a greeting like any other, and it is accepted all over the world, except France that is.
- elblanco 17y ago
  Your feelings are exactly why the waiter behaved as he did. Day after day of dealing with people with attitudes like this would sour anybody who couldn't even be bothered to put forth the effort to say "hello" in the local language, which requires about as much effort as drinking a cup of coffee.
  - bonaldi 17y ago
    It's not about the effort of saying "hello". If you don't know the language, it's reasonable not to try and begin a conversation in it -- what do you do when they reply with a rush of words you don't understand? What they should have done was learned "Parlez-vous Anglais?"
    - elblanco 17y ago
      > what do you do when they reply with a rush of words you don't understand? It's not that hard...in fact I'd go so far as to say that it's so easy it's a non-issue. Just start pointing and speaking in very simple English after the introduction and unless they have an IQ that fluctuates with the ambient temperature, they'll get the picture. More importantly they'll at least appreciate you gave the old "being polite" a shot and be more inclined to help. Opening with English, like you expect them to serve you in your language, which just feeds into the popular global view of Americans and native English speakers, very rarely works. Even if you expect help in English, it's how you package it up that matters. Rolling in, appearing that you are expecting to be helped in English makes people less inclined to help you. Bookending your interaction in "local", with "thank you" and other politeness as you can interspersed throughout packages up your expectations in a polite bow. If you still get treated rudely even after you demonstrate that you are willing to try and meet them halfway in the interaction...it's likely just a rude person. I wish that more of my countrymen and fellow native English speakers understood this type of basic politeness.
elblanco 17y ago
I couldn't agree more. Having just gotten back from Paris recently I can say that by and large, we received very good and pleasant service from most of the locals we dealt with. I don't speak any French, but at least I tried to be polite in the language as best as I could (using copious Merci's interspersed with nearly every thing they did), and I think people responded well. In fact some of the better, more courteous, service I received was from younger people waiting tables (Tribeca on Rue Cler for example). Of course not everybody spoke great English, but so long as I was appreciative of their efforts to work with me, things usually turned out pretty good. I've found this is definitely true no matter where I've gone, from NYC to Seoul. If you act like a self-absorbed, entitled brat, people respond negatively to that.
pbhjpbhj 17y ago
She is the BBC correspondent for Paris - that pretty much guarantees she knows the culture of Paris inside out and can speak as a native, the Beeb does rather have it's pick of candidates. Certainly as this article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8038512.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8038512.stm shows she can get on in a French Uni Psychology lecture. I don't think her linguistic skills are going to be the issue. An interview from when she took on the position: http://www.fabfrog.com/2007/10/23/changing_the_bbc_girls_in_paris~3183312/ http://www.fabfrog.com/2007/10/23/changing_the_bbc_girls_in_...

lyudmil 17y ago

Everywhere I have ever lived (the US and Europe) I noticed the same principles apply. If you approach people humbly, grateful for their willingness to share their culture with you, you will always get a positive response. Learning the local language, following the accepted social norms, and eating the local food will always go a long way. In fact, if you don't do most of those things to at least some extent, what's the point of being somewhere different?

scscsc 17y ago

In my experience, service in Paris is inferior to almost every other place i've been to. People simply can't be bothered to be helpful. They always have better things to do, like finishing the conversation with their spouse, texting the boyfriend, biting the nails, etc. That is, unless you're a good looking piece of ass, in which case you might get a nice i wanna do you smile. The French do indeed expect you to address them in French (in my experience, the ones that speak good English will have no problem with English though; very few of these though). And they simply have a different mindset. The waiter doesn't give a shit about you since (s)he is paid the same thing. The sellers in stores don't give a shit about whether you buy or not -- they get paid the same. They endorse random strikes, etc. You just have to learn to live with it. There are good things about Paris. And I have seen good service in France, with trained waiters; the trick is that the bill/person can run up to 100 euros in such places.

papersmith 17y ago
This actually sounds like China before the privatization of the service industry in the 90s, and I suspect it's similar in other communist countries. Back then store clerks were paid government wages with benefits, and most of time they would ignore customers even after you called them out. As a kid, I once went alone to buy an imported Gundam action figure with my savings and they made snide comments about my family being ostentatious. Now-a-days in private establishments they go to ridiculous lengths to provide good services, it's almost surreal. Once in a restaurant my cousin found a tiny caterpillar on a vegetable dish (hey, no pesticide!) and the manager came out to apologize and offered the meal for three free of charge.

timwiseman 17y ago

You have some excellent points, and I think I learned some interesting things from your post. I must disagree with one sentences though: I expect non-English immigrants to my country to at least know some basics, and 99% of them seem to. I think this depends on where in the US you are, but where I live there are many people that seem to know absolutely no English at all, even after living here for many years. They seem to insulate themselves through friends and family that can speak English. This slightly annoys me actually when I have to deal with it. I know some people are just learning English and I know some are tourists who will never master it, and I will bend over backwards to understand and help someone that is making an effort (when I visited Mexico I know my Spanish was atrocious every time I tried, so I sympathize with them). But when they have been here for a long time and made no effort to learn the language, I find it..irksome.

electromagnetic 17y ago
The percentage will definitely be off, it was based on my personal experience growing up in northern England. The same seems to apply here in Ontario, however I would expect it to be different along a cultural border. You can see it here in Ontario with Americans entering, but it's surprising how much speaking a common language has an effect on interactions. It's very noticeable in Europe at the countries borders due to the schengen area laws. Although when you accidentally arrive in Switzerland and know none of the language, I know I personally feel like a complete ass.

Vitaly 17y ago

This is ridiculous. The waiter pretended not to know English just because a tourist said 'hello' instead of 'Bonjour'? WTF? An example of a waiter being an ass. And I think a very good example continuing the theme of the original post. I see absolutely no reason to say 'hello' in language X if I'm going to proceed speaking English. I'm trying to communicate, not to impress with my language knowledge. This just doesn't make sense. Hello is a greeting like any other, and it is accepted all over the world, except France that is.

elblanco 17y ago
Your feelings are exactly why the waiter behaved as he did. Day after day of dealing with people with attitudes like this would sour anybody who couldn't even be bothered to put forth the effort to say "hello" in the local language, which requires about as much effort as drinking a cup of coffee.
- bonaldi 17y ago
  It's not about the effort of saying "hello". If you don't know the language, it's reasonable not to try and begin a conversation in it -- what do you do when they reply with a rush of words you don't understand? What they should have done was learned "Parlez-vous Anglais?"
  - elblanco 17y ago
    > what do you do when they reply with a rush of words you don't understand? It's not that hard...in fact I'd go so far as to say that it's so easy it's a non-issue. Just start pointing and speaking in very simple English after the introduction and unless they have an IQ that fluctuates with the ambient temperature, they'll get the picture. More importantly they'll at least appreciate you gave the old "being polite" a shot and be more inclined to help. Opening with English, like you expect them to serve you in your language, which just feeds into the popular global view of Americans and native English speakers, very rarely works. Even if you expect help in English, it's how you package it up that matters. Rolling in, appearing that you are expecting to be helped in English makes people less inclined to help you. Bookending your interaction in "local", with "thank you" and other politeness as you can interspersed throughout packages up your expectations in a polite bow. If you still get treated rudely even after you demonstrate that you are willing to try and meet them halfway in the interaction...it's likely just a rude person. I wish that more of my countrymen and fellow native English speakers understood this type of basic politeness.

elblanco 17y ago

I couldn't agree more. Having just gotten back from Paris recently I can say that by and large, we received very good and pleasant service from most of the locals we dealt with. I don't speak any French, but at least I tried to be polite in the language as best as I could (using copious Merci's interspersed with nearly every thing they did), and I think people responded well. In fact some of the better, more courteous, service I received was from younger people waiting tables (Tribeca on Rue Cler for example). Of course not everybody spoke great English, but so long as I was appreciative of their efforts to work with me, things usually turned out pretty good. I've found this is definitely true no matter where I've gone, from NYC to Seoul. If you act like a self-absorbed, entitled brat, people respond negatively to that.

pbhjpbhj 17y ago

She is the BBC correspondent for Paris - that pretty much guarantees she knows the culture of Paris inside out and can speak as a native, the Beeb does rather have it's pick of candidates. Certainly as this article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8038512.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8038512.stm shows she can get on in a French Uni Psychology lecture. I don't think her linguistic skills are going to be the issue. An interview from when she took on the position: http://www.fabfrog.com/2007/10/23/changing_the_bbc_girls_in_paris~3183312/ http://www.fabfrog.com/2007/10/23/changing_the_bbc_girls_in_...