5 ms·

In Paris, the customer is not always right

23 points by transmit101 17y ago

sli 17y ago
There are plenty of times when the customer should only very rarely be right. When you're a designer, for example.
electromagnetic 17y ago
Having spent much time in Paris during my lifetime, and far more in France itself, I'm very doubtful of this piece. In my entire life, I've only met one rude service provider in France and incidentally he was Croatian and despite speaking fluent French he had a heavy accent I couldn't understand. I have a strong suspicion the author of this piece is violating basic etiquette on a regular basis. The key to the French is to start any conversation with 'Bonjour' regardless of if you know French or not, because 90% of the time you won't even get a chance to use a second word in French, especially in Paris where virtually everyone in the tourist areas speak decent English. I remember me and my wife were in a little bistro near the Eiffel Tower, I took the lead and ordered. I got about half-way through before the waiter interrupted me and let me finish my order in English as it made it easier for both of us. Two or three tables down we saw an American couple (I'm guessing New York area by the accents), they got the same waiter as I did, but they said 'hello' and started trying to order in English. The waiter played coy, he didn't let on he knew English their entire meal, I think it took them 5-minutes to get through the entire order with him. I find it quite moronic that people visit a foreign country and don't even bother to learn how to introduce themselves. I expect non-English immigrants to my country to at least know some basics, and 99% of them seem to. However the majority of English-speakers who go to France invite this trouble onto themselves by not even bothering to use a single word of the native language. I've been to France, Spain (and several Spanish islands where dialects and customs differ a fair amount), Portugal and Turkey and I've never had this problem, because I always introduce myself in the local language. I remember getting a discount on speedboat rental in Turkey, the guy stopped us speaking Turkish (quite thankfully, because I think we got through the A-material in the first 3-words) and explained in English that we're one of the few 'Anglo's' in months to actually try speaking Turkish. Common courtesy in a foreign country goes a long way, but most people are too ignorant to understand. In France, Spain, Portugal and Turkey if you spoke the local language, people appeared to bend over backwards to help you because you just showed them immense respect, not just personal respect but to their nation too.
- lyudmil 17y ago
  Everywhere I have ever lived (the US and Europe) I noticed the same principles apply. If you approach people humbly, grateful for their willingness to share their culture with you, you will always get a positive response. Learning the local language, following the accepted social norms, and eating the local food will always go a long way. In fact, if you don't do most of those things to at least some extent, what's the point of being somewhere different?
- scscsc 17y ago
  In my experience, service in Paris is inferior to almost every other place i've been to. People simply can't be bothered to be helpful. They always have better things to do, like finishing the conversation with their spouse, texting the boyfriend, biting the nails, etc. That is, unless you're a good looking piece of ass, in which case you might get a nice i wanna do you smile. The French do indeed expect you to address them in French (in my experience, the ones that speak good English will have no problem with English though; very few of these though). And they simply have a different mindset. The waiter doesn't give a shit about you since (s)he is paid the same thing. The sellers in stores don't give a shit about whether you buy or not -- they get paid the same. They endorse random strikes, etc. You just have to learn to live with it. There are good things about Paris. And I have seen good service in France, with trained waiters; the trick is that the bill/person can run up to 100 euros in such places.
  - papersmith 17y ago
    This actually sounds like China before the privatization of the service industry in the 90s, and I suspect it's similar in other communist countries. Back then store clerks were paid government wages with benefits, and most of time they would ignore customers even after you called them out. As a kid, I once went alone to buy an imported Gundam action figure with my savings and they made snide comments about my family being ostentatious. Now-a-days in private establishments they go to ridiculous lengths to provide good services, it's almost surreal. Once in a restaurant my cousin found a tiny caterpillar on a vegetable dish (hey, no pesticide!) and the manager came out to apologize and offered the meal for three free of charge.
ErrantX 17y ago
I actually find the US way more uncomfortable. It seems to come across slightly in your face. All of my favourite restraints are in France (thouh not Paris) almost exclusively for this reason. Quiet, polite, restrained. As another poster in this thread touched on it is simply a case of local custom. Not tipping in the US, for example, is sure to net the same response I suspect.
geuis 17y ago
I spent a week in Tokyo at the beginning of the year. I'm glad that I read a lot before I went and picked up a few words. In hotels and restaurants, people will bend over backwards to help you. Everything they do is based around politeness. Everytime you walk into any kind of store you are greeted, whether a 7-11 or a high end hotel. But things are different. Your waiter doesn't come around to check on you until you specifically call for them. It's considered rude to bother the customer until they signal they need something. When at work or out socially, nearly every situation is governed by "sempai", which is who is senior among us. I went out drinking with 2 guys I met. They both worked as welder, but one was slightly older than the other. The younger one made sure he was always doing what the older one wanted. It wasn't as extreme as it sounds like I'm making it, but it was an under current the entire night.
- derefr 17y ago
  Did you ever specifically ask someone to "motto shuchou shite kudasai"? I've always wondered if they enjoyed the politeness, or if it was something they'd cast off if they knew you'd appreciate it.
sown 17y ago
Rude people in a major international alpha-city? I never.
Timothee 17y ago
I tend to agree, though it's clearly not as bad as this article makes it out to be. (I should precise that I'm French and have been living in the US for 5+ years) I think it's a different culture in customer service, and every time I go back I'm now expecting to have at least one weird-to-disastrous customer service experience. For Christmas, it was a call-center guy at Orange who was super condescending, refused to let me talk to his supervisor and ended up hanging up on me. (NB: I wasn't rude myself) I can absolutely not imagine that happening in the US.
dkarl 17y ago
This is a cultural difference that, at least according to one theory, actually reflects an authoritarian culture rather than an egalitarian one. It comes down to why people follow orders. In egalitarian societies, people see the ability of one person to tell another person what to do as role-based, purely for the sake of efficiency. In authoritarian societies, people see it as based on the personal superiority or privilege of the person giving the order. This can cause friction when two people from different cultures step on each other's sensibilities. A person with an egalitarian mentality working in a corporation in a less egalitarian country may be shocked at the way his "superiors" speak to him -- as if they were any better than him! A person from an authoritarian country may be offended when someone who is not his "superior" tries to "order him around," because "giving orders" presumes a hierarchical relationship between the two. From my point of view, it's quite convenient that I feel free to tell other people what to do, or do what other people tell me, without worrying about whether that implies a power relationship between us (+). But then, I would feel that way about my own culture, wouldn't I? For one analysis, see this book, which is oriented towards management and business communications: http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-Geert-Hofstede/dp/0071439595/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265599541&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-Geert-... The author identified five dimensions that he thinks are the most informative about national cultural differences. This how France and the United States compare: http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php?culture1=95&culture2=33#compare http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php?cultur... Note that France scores much higher on the Power Distance dimension, which attempts to measure "the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power is distributed unequally. This represents inequality (more versus less), but defined from below, not from above. It suggests that a society's level of inequality is endorsed by the followers as much as by the leaders." Obviously it's a gross oversimplification to measure national differences on just five dimensions, but it's also a gross oversimplification to presume anything about France merely from its embrace of "liberté, égalité, fraternité." The United States also officially and quite ostentatiously embraces equality, yet in the eyes of many, the United States is a leading exporter of inequality. The "equality" we celebrate in the United States can seem hollow or even trivial or useless from another perspective. Different cultures have notions of equality and inequality that appear simple to them while appearing complicated or contradictory to people from other cultures. I took a few semesters of French in college, but I don't have a clue what "égalité" means to them, only what it means to other Americans. (+) I just have to worry that if I'm consistently taking orders instead of giving them, then I must not be coming up with many good ideas!
Asa-Nisse 17y ago
I absolutely loath french culture. Sorry. Every time I go there I end up with a bad taste in my mouth and a mind telling me "never again". It's like you cant win with a french person. However, their beaches, mountains, wine and food tells me otherwise. I'll keep this article in mind the next time I visit (this summer).
- elblanco 17y ago
  > It's like you cant win with a french person. And there's your problem. Try working with them instead.

23 points by transmit101 17y ago

sli 17y ago

There are plenty of times when the customer should only very rarely be right. When you're a designer, for example.

Having spent much time in Paris during my lifetime, and far more in France itself, I'm very doubtful of this piece. In my entire life, I've only met one rude service provider in France and incidentally he was Croatian and despite speaking fluent French he had a heavy accent I couldn't understand. I have a strong suspicion the author of this piece is violating basic etiquette on a regular basis. The key to the French is to start any conversation with 'Bonjour' regardless of if you know French or not, because 90% of the time you won't even get a chance to use a second word in French, especially in Paris where virtually everyone in the tourist areas speak decent English. I remember me and my wife were in a little bistro near the Eiffel Tower, I took the lead and ordered. I got about half-way through before the waiter interrupted me and let me finish my order in English as it made it easier for both of us. Two or three tables down we saw an American couple (I'm guessing New York area by the accents), they got the same waiter as I did, but they said 'hello' and started trying to order in English. The waiter played coy, he didn't let on he knew English their entire meal, I think it took them 5-minutes to get through the entire order with him. I find it quite moronic that people visit a foreign country and don't even bother to learn how to introduce themselves. I expect non-English immigrants to my country to at least know some basics, and 99% of them seem to. However the majority of English-speakers who go to France invite this trouble onto themselves by not even bothering to use a single word of the native language. I've been to France, Spain (and several Spanish islands where dialects and customs differ a fair amount), Portugal and Turkey and I've never had this problem, because I always introduce myself in the local language. I remember getting a discount on speedboat rental in Turkey, the guy stopped us speaking Turkish (quite thankfully, because I think we got through the A-material in the first 3-words) and explained in English that we're one of the few 'Anglo's' in months to actually try speaking Turkish. Common courtesy in a foreign country goes a long way, but most people are too ignorant to understand. In France, Spain, Portugal and Turkey if you spoke the local language, people appeared to bend over backwards to help you because you just showed them immense respect, not just personal respect but to their nation too.

lyudmil 17y ago
Everywhere I have ever lived (the US and Europe) I noticed the same principles apply. If you approach people humbly, grateful for their willingness to share their culture with you, you will always get a positive response. Learning the local language, following the accepted social norms, and eating the local food will always go a long way. In fact, if you don't do most of those things to at least some extent, what's the point of being somewhere different?
scscsc 17y ago
In my experience, service in Paris is inferior to almost every other place i've been to. People simply can't be bothered to be helpful. They always have better things to do, like finishing the conversation with their spouse, texting the boyfriend, biting the nails, etc. That is, unless you're a good looking piece of ass, in which case you might get a nice i wanna do you smile. The French do indeed expect you to address them in French (in my experience, the ones that speak good English will have no problem with English though; very few of these though). And they simply have a different mindset. The waiter doesn't give a shit about you since (s)he is paid the same thing. The sellers in stores don't give a shit about whether you buy or not -- they get paid the same. They endorse random strikes, etc. You just have to learn to live with it. There are good things about Paris. And I have seen good service in France, with trained waiters; the trick is that the bill/person can run up to 100 euros in such places.
- papersmith 17y ago
  This actually sounds like China before the privatization of the service industry in the 90s, and I suspect it's similar in other communist countries. Back then store clerks were paid government wages with benefits, and most of time they would ignore customers even after you called them out. As a kid, I once went alone to buy an imported Gundam action figure with my savings and they made snide comments about my family being ostentatious. Now-a-days in private establishments they go to ridiculous lengths to provide good services, it's almost surreal. Once in a restaurant my cousin found a tiny caterpillar on a vegetable dish (hey, no pesticide!) and the manager came out to apologize and offered the meal for three free of charge.

ErrantX 17y ago

I actually find the US way more uncomfortable. It seems to come across slightly in your face. All of my favourite restraints are in France (thouh not Paris) almost exclusively for this reason. Quiet, polite, restrained. As another poster in this thread touched on it is simply a case of local custom. Not tipping in the US, for example, is sure to net the same response I suspect.

geuis 17y ago

I spent a week in Tokyo at the beginning of the year. I'm glad that I read a lot before I went and picked up a few words. In hotels and restaurants, people will bend over backwards to help you. Everything they do is based around politeness. Everytime you walk into any kind of store you are greeted, whether a 7-11 or a high end hotel. But things are different. Your waiter doesn't come around to check on you until you specifically call for them. It's considered rude to bother the customer until they signal they need something. When at work or out socially, nearly every situation is governed by "sempai", which is who is senior among us. I went out drinking with 2 guys I met. They both worked as welder, but one was slightly older than the other. The younger one made sure he was always doing what the older one wanted. It wasn't as extreme as it sounds like I'm making it, but it was an under current the entire night.

derefr 17y ago
Did you ever specifically ask someone to "motto shuchou shite kudasai"? I've always wondered if they enjoyed the politeness, or if it was something they'd cast off if they knew you'd appreciate it.

sown 17y ago

Rude people in a major international alpha-city? I never.

Timothee 17y ago

I tend to agree, though it's clearly not as bad as this article makes it out to be. (I should precise that I'm French and have been living in the US for 5+ years) I think it's a different culture in customer service, and every time I go back I'm now expecting to have at least one weird-to-disastrous customer service experience. For Christmas, it was a call-center guy at Orange who was super condescending, refused to let me talk to his supervisor and ended up hanging up on me. (NB: I wasn't rude myself) I can absolutely not imagine that happening in the US.

dkarl 17y ago

This is a cultural difference that, at least according to one theory, actually reflects an authoritarian culture rather than an egalitarian one. It comes down to why people follow orders. In egalitarian societies, people see the ability of one person to tell another person what to do as role-based, purely for the sake of efficiency. In authoritarian societies, people see it as based on the personal superiority or privilege of the person giving the order. This can cause friction when two people from different cultures step on each other's sensibilities. A person with an egalitarian mentality working in a corporation in a less egalitarian country may be shocked at the way his "superiors" speak to him -- as if they were any better than him! A person from an authoritarian country may be offended when someone who is not his "superior" tries to "order him around," because "giving orders" presumes a hierarchical relationship between the two. From my point of view, it's quite convenient that I feel free to tell other people what to do, or do what other people tell me, without worrying about whether that implies a power relationship between us (+). But then, I would feel that way about my own culture, wouldn't I? For one analysis, see this book, which is oriented towards management and business communications: http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-Geert-Hofstede/dp/0071439595/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265599541&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-Geert-... The author identified five dimensions that he thinks are the most informative about national cultural differences. This how France and the United States compare: http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php?culture1=95&culture2=33#compare http://www.geert-hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php?cultur... Note that France scores much higher on the Power Distance dimension, which attempts to measure "the extent to which the less powerful members of organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power is distributed unequally. This represents inequality (more versus less), but defined from below, not from above. It suggests that a society's level of inequality is endorsed by the followers as much as by the leaders." Obviously it's a gross oversimplification to measure national differences on just five dimensions, but it's also a gross oversimplification to presume anything about France merely from its embrace of "liberté, égalité, fraternité." The United States also officially and quite ostentatiously embraces equality, yet in the eyes of many, the United States is a leading exporter of inequality. The "equality" we celebrate in the United States can seem hollow or even trivial or useless from another perspective. Different cultures have notions of equality and inequality that appear simple to them while appearing complicated or contradictory to people from other cultures. I took a few semesters of French in college, but I don't have a clue what "égalité" means to them, only what it means to other Americans. (+) I just have to worry that if I'm consistently taking orders instead of giving them, then I must not be coming up with many good ideas!

Asa-Nisse 17y ago

I absolutely loath french culture. Sorry. Every time I go there I end up with a bad taste in my mouth and a mind telling me "never again". It's like you cant win with a french person. However, their beaches, mountains, wine and food tells me otherwise. I'll keep this article in mind the next time I visit (this summer).

elblanco 17y ago
> It's like you cant win with a french person. And there's your problem. Try working with them instead.