7 ms·

How dire is Singapore’s engineering ecosystem?

57 points by williswee 11y ago

hitekker 11y ago
Good update on the Singaporean scene. One measure I wish that was included was salaries; are the averages getting better vis-a-vis NYC or the Bay Area? Money talks, as they say.
- p4wnc6 11y ago
  This is important. I had several interviews with some Singaporean companies and salary was always the limiting factor. It was absolutely nowhere close to what similar positions would pay in major US cities, let alone New York or SF. Yet cost of living in Singapore is fairly high. While there are some tax advantages, you also have to weigh the risks of such a long-distance relocation and visa issues, as well as the significant cultural differences that you have to embrace to live functionally in Singapore. If anything, it ought to require a significant salary premium to attract talented engineers to bear some of these risks to relocate to Singapore. One of my specific experiences was with Standard Chartered, since they are one of the largest commercial users of Haskell and have a large Haskell engineering presence in Singapore. Boy, that was disappointing. Basically they think they can use the fact that you get to work with Haskell (even though it is line of business bank software and involves a poorly built custom Haskell compiler) and that it's located in Singapore as means to reduce salary when they import a worker. If it's that bad with a wealthy investment bank, it's hard to believe it's reached a healthy salary situation there across the engineering spectrum. But I am sure there are the occasional gems there which do offer fair wage for the risks being taken by employees.
  - maaku 11y ago
    They don't use ghc?
  - yomly 11y ago
    >"that it's located in Singapore as means to reduce salary when they import a worker." Having lived and worked there (and having a Singaporean father) this mentality does not surprise me at all. The national propaganda machine indoctrinates their citizens to believe it is the greatest most successful place in the world, and a curious kind of arrogance arises from it. This is not to say that other nations are not guilty of these practices, but I certainly notice it when I deal with Singaporeans
  - fieryeagle 11y ago
    That's both pleasant and disappointing to hear. Believe me, if they offer you S$90k base, that's already considered a fat salary.
- markplindsay 11y ago
  Absolutely. Singapore is great, and I've always been interested in living there, but the pay for software developers is too low. The cost of living is about the same for (non-PR, non-Malaysian) foreigners as it is in NYC. From my casual/infrequent research, salaries seem to be about half of what a developer in NYC would make. The income tax rate is lower, but that doesn't help much when you're still paying NYC prices for an apartment.
  - hhandoko 11y ago
    Just to add, you might not benefit from the lower income tax in Singapore when migrating from the US due to the Double Tax Agreements between Singapore and US (i.e. you'd have to pay for the tax difference between the Singapore and US tax).
    - nopzor 11y ago
      No US tax at all, on the first USD 100K-ish of income earned while living in Singapore. At least that was the case a few years ago.
mrchess 11y ago
One of the most interesting things I noticed when living is Singapore last year was that a lot of engineers, especially computer programmers, fall under the IT category. There was no sense "software engineer" or "systems administrator" or "solutions engineer", etc. not in the way how it is in the US. They all just looked at me and said, "Oh, so you work in IT?" Then we talked about banking.
- fieryeagle 11y ago
  I silently added those who said that to a certain blacklist. Been through enough of 'Me - I'm in Software not IT. Them- But it is IT since you work with computer right?' ping pong matches. Ignoramuses, really.
johansch 11y ago
My impression after doing a bunch of research (trying to get relocated there!): Singaporeans get into banking/lawyering instead. For some peculiar reason software development seems to be seen as a sort of janitorial task there. This doesn't seem super sustainable... Google just announced that they are locating their SEA engineering hub in Singapore though - perhaps that will cause more of the young smart Singaporean people to aim for software careers.
matt_wulfeck 11y ago
I want to know about management, which is one of the singular reasons I will never work for an Asian company. I worked for a Japanese company and the amount of negative reinforcement and risk averse behavior was maddening. It destroys the environment that gives birth to new ideas.
jpenninkhof 11y ago
It has always been quite easy to get software engineers from neighbouring low-wage countries for relatively low salaries. I guess that has affected the market, and that's why salaries of software engineers in Singapore are relatively low. When I was living in Singapore, I moved to another job for this reason, as I found it hard to make a decent living as a software engineer.
erispoe 11y ago
An important point is the social conservatism of Singapore, which I suspect plays an important role in repelling a large number of people. I don't think it's a complete coincidence that startup hubs emerge in places that are relatively libertarian in regards to social values and open to counter culture. Singapore sends a "not welcome here" message to many people: gays, hiv positive, marijuana consumers... As long as the country sticks to dictating citizens and residents how they should behave, including in private, they will have trouble attracting and growing an engineering class. For a startup culture to emerge, you need to allow, and even welcome, experimentations off the beaten tracks. That's hardly compatible with social authoritarianism.
jernfrost 11y ago
I have entertained the thought of working in Singapore. It appeals living somewhere with bette climate, cheap to go out eating, big city etc. I live in Oslo, Norway and have a certain fascination for Singapore, it coincidentally having almost the same GDP and population as Norway, but a completely different society. I am not sure if anyone here could comment on some of concerns with working in Singapore. 1) What is work-life balance like? From Norway I am used to employees respecting that people have a life outside of work, needs of children and family, 5 week vacation etc. 2) What is management and company organizations like, are they very hierarchical or flat in a software company? Do they micromanage or give you a lot of trust to solve problems the best way you see fit? 3) How does health care work for expats. You get that yourself or does the company pay? How easy is it to live there without a car? Like how well does public transport work, or how cheap/hard/easy is it to get transport services for moving, installing furniture etc. In Norway it always cost a lot to pay somebody to help you with anything, so you are always forced to do a lot of stuff yourself. It is not without reason that IKEA originates from Scandinavia. I had the impression that in Singapore it might be much cheaper and easier to pay people for various services.
- throwaway60453 11y ago
  Singapore currently has one of the highest standards of living in the world, so bargains are few. It is nearly 100% ethnic Chinese, and Chinese prefer family-managed companies, so you would have some culture-shock. There are some web and ISP companies there, so that's your best bet for a typical cosmopolitan workplace. Condos are over $1 million each for residents, so housing is expensive. Anyway, it sounds like you need to do more homework before moving there.
  - whitegrape 11y ago
    74% is a lot less than 100%.
- toomanybeersies 11y ago
  I've been to Singapore a couple of times, so I can answer about transportation. You won't have a car in Singapore, unless you are filthy rich, car registrations cost in the tens of thousands of dollars range. The public transport is world class, the metro is great. I guess that's one of the big benefits of having such a high population density.
crdoconnor 11y ago
Wages are shitty and management is habitually abusive. Anybody talented will run away quickly from that place.

57 points by williswee 11y ago

Good update on the Singaporean scene. One measure I wish that was included was salaries; are the averages getting better vis-a-vis NYC or the Bay Area? Money talks, as they say.

p4wnc6 11y ago
This is important. I had several interviews with some Singaporean companies and salary was always the limiting factor. It was absolutely nowhere close to what similar positions would pay in major US cities, let alone New York or SF. Yet cost of living in Singapore is fairly high. While there are some tax advantages, you also have to weigh the risks of such a long-distance relocation and visa issues, as well as the significant cultural differences that you have to embrace to live functionally in Singapore. If anything, it ought to require a significant salary premium to attract talented engineers to bear some of these risks to relocate to Singapore. One of my specific experiences was with Standard Chartered, since they are one of the largest commercial users of Haskell and have a large Haskell engineering presence in Singapore. Boy, that was disappointing. Basically they think they can use the fact that you get to work with Haskell (even though it is line of business bank software and involves a poorly built custom Haskell compiler) and that it's located in Singapore as means to reduce salary when they import a worker. If it's that bad with a wealthy investment bank, it's hard to believe it's reached a healthy salary situation there across the engineering spectrum. But I am sure there are the occasional gems there which do offer fair wage for the risks being taken by employees.
- maaku 11y ago
  They don't use ghc?
- yomly 11y ago
  >"that it's located in Singapore as means to reduce salary when they import a worker." Having lived and worked there (and having a Singaporean father) this mentality does not surprise me at all. The national propaganda machine indoctrinates their citizens to believe it is the greatest most successful place in the world, and a curious kind of arrogance arises from it. This is not to say that other nations are not guilty of these practices, but I certainly notice it when I deal with Singaporeans
- fieryeagle 11y ago
  That's both pleasant and disappointing to hear. Believe me, if they offer you S$90k base, that's already considered a fat salary.
markplindsay 11y ago
Absolutely. Singapore is great, and I've always been interested in living there, but the pay for software developers is too low. The cost of living is about the same for (non-PR, non-Malaysian) foreigners as it is in NYC. From my casual/infrequent research, salaries seem to be about half of what a developer in NYC would make. The income tax rate is lower, but that doesn't help much when you're still paying NYC prices for an apartment.
- hhandoko 11y ago
  Just to add, you might not benefit from the lower income tax in Singapore when migrating from the US due to the Double Tax Agreements between Singapore and US (i.e. you'd have to pay for the tax difference between the Singapore and US tax).
  - nopzor 11y ago
    No US tax at all, on the first USD 100K-ish of income earned while living in Singapore. At least that was the case a few years ago.

mrchess 11y ago

One of the most interesting things I noticed when living is Singapore last year was that a lot of engineers, especially computer programmers, fall under the IT category. There was no sense "software engineer" or "systems administrator" or "solutions engineer", etc. not in the way how it is in the US. They all just looked at me and said, "Oh, so you work in IT?" Then we talked about banking.

fieryeagle 11y ago
I silently added those who said that to a certain blacklist. Been through enough of 'Me - I'm in Software not IT. Them- But it is IT since you work with computer right?' ping pong matches. Ignoramuses, really.

johansch 11y ago

My impression after doing a bunch of research (trying to get relocated there!): Singaporeans get into banking/lawyering instead. For some peculiar reason software development seems to be seen as a sort of janitorial task there. This doesn't seem super sustainable... Google just announced that they are locating their SEA engineering hub in Singapore though - perhaps that will cause more of the young smart Singaporean people to aim for software careers.

matt_wulfeck 11y ago

I want to know about management, which is one of the singular reasons I will never work for an Asian company. I worked for a Japanese company and the amount of negative reinforcement and risk averse behavior was maddening. It destroys the environment that gives birth to new ideas.

jpenninkhof 11y ago

It has always been quite easy to get software engineers from neighbouring low-wage countries for relatively low salaries. I guess that has affected the market, and that's why salaries of software engineers in Singapore are relatively low. When I was living in Singapore, I moved to another job for this reason, as I found it hard to make a decent living as a software engineer.

erispoe 11y ago

An important point is the social conservatism of Singapore, which I suspect plays an important role in repelling a large number of people. I don't think it's a complete coincidence that startup hubs emerge in places that are relatively libertarian in regards to social values and open to counter culture. Singapore sends a "not welcome here" message to many people: gays, hiv positive, marijuana consumers... As long as the country sticks to dictating citizens and residents how they should behave, including in private, they will have trouble attracting and growing an engineering class. For a startup culture to emerge, you need to allow, and even welcome, experimentations off the beaten tracks. That's hardly compatible with social authoritarianism.

jernfrost 11y ago

I have entertained the thought of working in Singapore. It appeals living somewhere with bette climate, cheap to go out eating, big city etc. I live in Oslo, Norway and have a certain fascination for Singapore, it coincidentally having almost the same GDP and population as Norway, but a completely different society. I am not sure if anyone here could comment on some of concerns with working in Singapore. 1) What is work-life balance like? From Norway I am used to employees respecting that people have a life outside of work, needs of children and family, 5 week vacation etc. 2) What is management and company organizations like, are they very hierarchical or flat in a software company? Do they micromanage or give you a lot of trust to solve problems the best way you see fit? 3) How does health care work for expats. You get that yourself or does the company pay? How easy is it to live there without a car? Like how well does public transport work, or how cheap/hard/easy is it to get transport services for moving, installing furniture etc. In Norway it always cost a lot to pay somebody to help you with anything, so you are always forced to do a lot of stuff yourself. It is not without reason that IKEA originates from Scandinavia. I had the impression that in Singapore it might be much cheaper and easier to pay people for various services.

throwaway60453 11y ago
Singapore currently has one of the highest standards of living in the world, so bargains are few. It is nearly 100% ethnic Chinese, and Chinese prefer family-managed companies, so you would have some culture-shock. There are some web and ISP companies there, so that's your best bet for a typical cosmopolitan workplace. Condos are over $1 million each for residents, so housing is expensive. Anyway, it sounds like you need to do more homework before moving there.
- whitegrape 11y ago
  74% is a lot less than 100%.
toomanybeersies 11y ago
I've been to Singapore a couple of times, so I can answer about transportation. You won't have a car in Singapore, unless you are filthy rich, car registrations cost in the tens of thousands of dollars range. The public transport is world class, the metro is great. I guess that's one of the big benefits of having such a high population density.

crdoconnor 11y ago

Wages are shitty and management is habitually abusive. Anybody talented will run away quickly from that place.