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I absolutely hate this quote; it gets parroted all the time as a smug and flippant criticism of the American Dream. Isn't it a good thing that people see thems

I absolutely hate this quote; it gets parroted all the time as a smug and flippant criticism of the American Dream. Isn't it a good thing that people see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires? How is that any different than seeing yourself as a temporarily embarrassed rock star, or astronaut, or breakthrough scientist, or famous artist, or successful entrepreneur? Is it such a bad thing that we're a nation of dreamers? Go ahead and tell a child that they shouldn't have big dreams because it's silly to believe they might come true, because that's essentially what Steinbeck is doing to the poor in this quote. See how smug you feel then. Or should we do like the Europeans do and set low expectations rather than suffer the pain of not meeting higher ones? They say that the Danes are the happiest people in the world because they nave notoriously low expectations. I'll take naive optimism over pragmatic pessimism any day of the week.

ericzawo 11y ago
Whatever helps you queue up at Wal Mart, I guess.
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  > Whatever helps you queue up at Wal Mart, I guess. Can we keep dismissive one-line comments that add nothing to the discussion off of Hacker News?
AndrewUnmuted 11y ago
> They say that the Danes are the happiest people in the world because they nave notoriously low expectations. According to my alarm clock app, they also get the most sleep of any nation on Earth.
Xylakant 11y ago
> Isn't it a good thing that people see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires? No, it's not. Because that's what helps the current millionaires to single them out and make them act in a way that's contrary to their interest.
vkou 11y ago
No, it's not. Not everyone will become a cosmonaut... Or a rock star. That's just a fact. The problem isn't the dreaming - the problem is acting against your own best interests, and spending your political power on chasing lottery tickets. See: The 2008 election's obsession with Joe the Plumber, and his concern for taxes on people making over $250,000/year. He didn't make anywhere close to $250,000... And never will.
- marknutter 11y ago
  So because not everyone will become a cosmonaut, nobody should try? Think for a second about what you're saying. Would you honestly tell a child "sorry kid, the chances of you going into space are pretty slim, so why don't you aim a bit lower.". The great thing about big dreams and lofty goals is that even if you don't reach them you often end up in a better situation. So sure, Joe the Plumber may not have made anywhere close to $250,000, but he made a hell of a lot more than someone not working at all, right? And yeah, little Sally may not become a cosmonaut, but she may land a gig working at SpaceX as an engineer and be on the team that eventually successfully executes a manned mission to Mars. I'm sorry, but this is what's so great about America. When I hear people, especially foreigners, make fun of the American Dream I can't help but think it's just sour grapes.
  - auntyJemima 11y ago
    "especially foreigners" You realize most foreigners come here for the American dream, right? I don't know about you but look around. Many Americans, including myself, don't believe in that made up non-sense. It was a period in world history where everything lined up. In the 50s to 70s, there was enough population but not too much, great economic expansion, and opportunity to be found. As a generation that grew up with 9/11, two wars, an economic crash unseen in decades, unemployment, and now college debt, don't tell me that I'm not optimistic because that's the only thing I'm running on these days. The dream is dead (never probably existed), but doesn't mean we need to flush all our hopes into the toilet either.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
fizzbatter 11y ago
Isn't that part of growing up though? Why have a life savings if you're only temporarily poor. You know you're going to be rich eventually, right? I think there's a implicit understanding with this quote that Americans not only have that "American dream", but we also don't expect to work for it. If it was merely a matter of Americans dreaming big and working towards it, then great! But it's not, imo. It's Americans dreaming big, and working their low end 9 to 5, expecting the dream to come true. It's more Dream than Reality. It's a daydream. Part of dreaming big is understanding that you have to work towards it, or it won't happen. I don't feel like this is happening in America. (As an American)
- marknutter 11y ago
  > Isn't that part of growing up though? Why have a life savings if you're only temporarily poor. You know you're going to be rich eventually, right? No, letting your dreams die is not a "part of growing up", good lord, how depressing. Think about what life savings are for a minute. It's literally a bunch of money you save over many years that you only get to spend once you're too old to work anymore. If we all just settled for this very pragmatic dream we wouldn't start companies, create art, or take any significant risks. > I think there's a implicit understanding with this quote that Americans not only have that "American dream", but we also don't expect to work for it. That's funny, because that's exactly how I would characterize Socialism; as the ability for anybody to attain the "American Dream" without having to work for it. If the Government could simply hand out American Dreams at the Bureau of American Dreams then why would anyone ever aim any higher? Why would anyone take a risk on anything or try to exceed expectations? > Part of dreaming big is understanding that you have to work towards it, or it won't happen. I don't feel like this is happening in America. (As an American) I agree completely, and that's precisely what the American Dream is. If people are misconstruing it as some handout that you don't have to work for then that's a problem and they need a big wakeup call. But I think the American Dream is still alive and well here, otherwise we might not be here on Hacker News keeping up to date with the latest happenings in the startup world and we might not be thinking of or attempting to start our own startups. But we clearly are, and we're doing it at a higher rate than any other country on the planet. The day the American Dream dies is the day we stop innovating as a country.
enraged_camel 11y ago
>>I absolutely hate this quote; it gets parroted all the time as a smug and flippant criticism of the American Dream. Which is totally fine, because the American Dream has been dead for a long time. http://www.alternet.org/economy/7-facts-show-american-dream-dead http://www.alternet.org/economy/7-facts-show-american-dream-... >>Is it such a bad thing that we're a nation of dreamers? Insofar as those dreams actually help you achieve your goals, no. The problem with the American Dream is the narrative: that anything is achievable if you work hard for it. This could not be further from the truth, and continuing to believe it is actively harmful.
bduerst 11y ago
Because the success of the individual is very rarely tied to just the sweat of their own brow. A society built on the principle of citizens lifting up their neighbors tends to be happier.
popmystack 11y ago
>Or should we do like the Europeans do and set low expectations rather than suffer the pain of not meeting higher ones? That is a completely ridiculous statement with absolutely no basis in reality.
- auntyJemima 11y ago
  The guy who wrote that is just full of archaic anecdotal neoliberal propaganda nonsense.
  - marknutter 11y ago
    Thanks for that
guyzero 11y ago
"How is that any different than seeing yourself as a temporarily embarrassed rock star, or astronaut, or breakthrough scientist, or famous artist, or successful entrepreneur?" In Freaknomics they have a chapter titled "Why Do Drug Dealers Still Live with Their Moms?"[1] - the issue isn't that people are aspirational, it's that they treat success as a gladiatorial contest where there's only one winner and everyone else has to die for you to win. As opposed to "socialism" where everyone can succeed somewhat. [1]http://freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-3/ http://freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/...
padseeker 11y ago
I'm sorry that you hate this quote, but I strongly agree with the sentiment. A perfect example of this mentality is Joe the Plumber from the 2008 election. Here is a guy that was out of work had a lien on a property for not paying taxes, and yet what is this guy worried about? The raise on taxes Obama was proposing on the top bracket. Why? Because some day he hoped to start his own business. What kind of person worries about raising taxes on the rich that cannot pay back taxes and is underemployed? A temporarily embarrassed millionaire. I've lost track of how many people I've met who can barely make ends meet or are deeply in debt and yet hold onto this philosophy. Isn't it a good thing that people have hope? Yes. But is it a good thing to live in a fantasy world and make decisions based on that fantasy while failing to live up to your obligations in your every day life? No, I think it is a terrible thing. A significant portion of Americans seem to live in a state of delusion. It's stupid for people who are un or under-employed and have no capital to vote for and advocate for those making millions because they themselves think they will get there eventually. This seems to happen quite a bit in America and nowhere else.
- marknutter 11y ago
  > What kind of person worries about raising taxes on the rich that cannot pay back taxes and is underemployed? A Straw Man
  - padseeker 11y ago
    Who is the straw man? Joe? He's a real guy. And there are thousands like him.
    - krapp 11y ago
      There may be plenty of people who agree with him, but "Joe The Plumber" is a straw-populist agitant persona manufactured by the Republican party.
- runamok 11y ago
  Even though it may be against their interests someone may look at a person making one million a year, see they pay close to 50% of their income in taxes (if they live in California for instance) and think that's enough. The majority of our income taxes are paid by very high income people. They may also feel that if we tax them too punitively they'll leave or cheat or have less money to start/maintain businesses, etc. The top marginal tax rate is about %40 right? It used to be 90% in 1960 and 70% in 1980 although these kicked in at much higher amount of wealth than in the modern day. What do people think is 'fair' considering most do not even understand progressive taxes. 100 years ago there was no income tax. I personally think we spend too much and the main reason I support higher taxes on the rich (especially cap gains over a certain amount) is so it is not as easy to subvert the political system in their favor. I don't know what number is 'fair' though.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> I absolutely hate this quote; it gets parroted all the time as a smug and flippant criticism of the American Dream. Its not a criticism of the American Dream. > Isn't it a good thing that people see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires? No; it might be good if people saw themselves as aspiring millionaires, and acted sensible to achieve that aspiration. The whole thrust of the "temporarily embarrassed" quote is that the subjects see their condition as an inherently temporary condition that will resolve itself, and therefore act as if there interest were the interest of what their fantasized "normal" condition would be once that "temporary embarrassment" resolved itself. This, however, actively inhibits the realization of that condition -- which is not a "normal" condition to which things will resolve on their own.
wfo 11y ago
Once you realize the economy is a massive pyramid scheme, do you say there's probably a better way to do it than let the people on top exploit everyone below? Or do you say "Great, I'm the smarter, more successful, and inherently better than every other person in the universe I just haven't realized my full potential yet. The pyramid scheme means inevitably when I rise to the position I deserve I can stomp all over the peasant underclass"? That's what the quote is about.
randcraw 11y ago
But why does anyone dream of being a millionaire? From what I've read, most Americans want wealth not to gain something specific as much as to free them from want, from the pains of being poor. For 99% of us, I think the American Dream is about being respected and happy, not becoming a one percenter. It's only the one percenters who claim otherwise.
kafkaesq 11y ago
Isn't it a good thing that people see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires? No, because it implies that the only way to better your situation is not just to do well, but to get on top, and make a killing. That is, literally: to have access to wealth and security that is (greatly) disproportionate to what most other have. Which (by definition) is unobtainable, for the vast majority. And which contributes to what we might call the "hollowing out of the middle." All structural factors (which others have cited as exacerbating factors to income equality in recent decades) aside -- the bottom line is that the middle class life not has not only come under pressure -- it just isn't valued as a goal, or a position to have in society. How is that any different than seeing yourself as a temporarily embarrassed rock star, or astronaut, or breakthrough scientist, or famous artist, or successful entrepreneur? Nothing wrong with wanting to achieve something great. If what interests you is the achievement in itself. But if the only way out of poverty (or middle class stagnation) is to become a "rock star" of some form or another -- that suggests that something is very, very wrong with the incentive and reward structure in a society -- like ours -- that implicitly holds that value structure.
unprepare 11y ago
so you are angry because you misunderstood the quote. got it. 'temporarily embarrassed ___' != 'dream of being ___' Why would it be embarrassing to dream of being an astronaut? its only embarrassing if you feel you are ENTITLED to being an astronaut. So yeah, i mean if you feel like entitlement is a positive and cornerstone piece of our society then you should continue disagreeing with the quote...
- marknutter 11y ago
  Well, if we're going to be pedantic about it then it's important to understand that the quote itself is misunderstood: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck#Disputed https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck#Disputed But regardless, I can't understand how anyone would understand that quote to meant that Americans feel like they are entitled to be Millionaires. Someone being embarrassed about not being something doesn't directly imply that they feel entitled to be that thing. More likely it means that they are working toward something they feel they ought to be able to achieve. Meaning they've always dreamt of themselves being millionaires but have yet to achieve it.

ericzawo 11y ago

Whatever helps you queue up at Wal Mart, I guess.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> Whatever helps you queue up at Wal Mart, I guess. Can we keep dismissive one-line comments that add nothing to the discussion off of Hacker News?

AndrewUnmuted 11y ago

> They say that the Danes are the happiest people in the world because they nave notoriously low expectations. According to my alarm clock app, they also get the most sleep of any nation on Earth.

Xylakant 11y ago

> Isn't it a good thing that people see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires? No, it's not. Because that's what helps the current millionaires to single them out and make them act in a way that's contrary to their interest.

vkou 11y ago

No, it's not. Not everyone will become a cosmonaut... Or a rock star. That's just a fact. The problem isn't the dreaming - the problem is acting against your own best interests, and spending your political power on chasing lottery tickets. See: The 2008 election's obsession with Joe the Plumber, and his concern for taxes on people making over $250,000/year. He didn't make anywhere close to $250,000... And never will.

marknutter 11y ago
So because not everyone will become a cosmonaut, nobody should try? Think for a second about what you're saying. Would you honestly tell a child "sorry kid, the chances of you going into space are pretty slim, so why don't you aim a bit lower.". The great thing about big dreams and lofty goals is that even if you don't reach them you often end up in a better situation. So sure, Joe the Plumber may not have made anywhere close to $250,000, but he made a hell of a lot more than someone not working at all, right? And yeah, little Sally may not become a cosmonaut, but she may land a gig working at SpaceX as an engineer and be on the team that eventually successfully executes a manned mission to Mars. I'm sorry, but this is what's so great about America. When I hear people, especially foreigners, make fun of the American Dream I can't help but think it's just sour grapes.
- auntyJemima 11y ago
  "especially foreigners" You realize most foreigners come here for the American dream, right? I don't know about you but look around. Many Americans, including myself, don't believe in that made up non-sense. It was a period in world history where everything lined up. In the 50s to 70s, there was enough population but not too much, great economic expansion, and opportunity to be found. As a generation that grew up with 9/11, two wars, an economic crash unseen in decades, unemployment, and now college debt, don't tell me that I'm not optimistic because that's the only thing I'm running on these days. The dream is dead (never probably existed), but doesn't mean we need to flush all our hopes into the toilet either.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

fizzbatter 11y ago

Isn't that part of growing up though? Why have a life savings if you're only temporarily poor. You know you're going to be rich eventually, right? I think there's a implicit understanding with this quote that Americans not only have that "American dream", but we also don't expect to work for it. If it was merely a matter of Americans dreaming big and working towards it, then great! But it's not, imo. It's Americans dreaming big, and working their low end 9 to 5, expecting the dream to come true. It's more Dream than Reality. It's a daydream. Part of dreaming big is understanding that you have to work towards it, or it won't happen. I don't feel like this is happening in America. (As an American)

marknutter 11y ago
> Isn't that part of growing up though? Why have a life savings if you're only temporarily poor. You know you're going to be rich eventually, right? No, letting your dreams die is not a "part of growing up", good lord, how depressing. Think about what life savings are for a minute. It's literally a bunch of money you save over many years that you only get to spend once you're too old to work anymore. If we all just settled for this very pragmatic dream we wouldn't start companies, create art, or take any significant risks. > I think there's a implicit understanding with this quote that Americans not only have that "American dream", but we also don't expect to work for it. That's funny, because that's exactly how I would characterize Socialism; as the ability for anybody to attain the "American Dream" without having to work for it. If the Government could simply hand out American Dreams at the Bureau of American Dreams then why would anyone ever aim any higher? Why would anyone take a risk on anything or try to exceed expectations? > Part of dreaming big is understanding that you have to work towards it, or it won't happen. I don't feel like this is happening in America. (As an American) I agree completely, and that's precisely what the American Dream is. If people are misconstruing it as some handout that you don't have to work for then that's a problem and they need a big wakeup call. But I think the American Dream is still alive and well here, otherwise we might not be here on Hacker News keeping up to date with the latest happenings in the startup world and we might not be thinking of or attempting to start our own startups. But we clearly are, and we're doing it at a higher rate than any other country on the planet. The day the American Dream dies is the day we stop innovating as a country.

enraged_camel 11y ago

>>I absolutely hate this quote; it gets parroted all the time as a smug and flippant criticism of the American Dream. Which is totally fine, because the American Dream has been dead for a long time. http://www.alternet.org/economy/7-facts-show-american-dream-dead http://www.alternet.org/economy/7-facts-show-american-dream-... >>Is it such a bad thing that we're a nation of dreamers? Insofar as those dreams actually help you achieve your goals, no. The problem with the American Dream is the narrative: that anything is achievable if you work hard for it. This could not be further from the truth, and continuing to believe it is actively harmful.

bduerst 11y ago

Because the success of the individual is very rarely tied to just the sweat of their own brow. A society built on the principle of citizens lifting up their neighbors tends to be happier.

popmystack 11y ago

>Or should we do like the Europeans do and set low expectations rather than suffer the pain of not meeting higher ones? That is a completely ridiculous statement with absolutely no basis in reality.

auntyJemima 11y ago
The guy who wrote that is just full of archaic anecdotal neoliberal propaganda nonsense.
- marknutter 11y ago
  Thanks for that

guyzero 11y ago

"How is that any different than seeing yourself as a temporarily embarrassed rock star, or astronaut, or breakthrough scientist, or famous artist, or successful entrepreneur?" In Freaknomics they have a chapter titled "Why Do Drug Dealers Still Live with Their Moms?"[1] - the issue isn't that people are aspirational, it's that they treat success as a gladiatorial contest where there's only one winner and everyone else has to die for you to win. As opposed to "socialism" where everyone can succeed somewhat. [1]http://freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-3/ http://freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/...

padseeker 11y ago

I'm sorry that you hate this quote, but I strongly agree with the sentiment. A perfect example of this mentality is Joe the Plumber from the 2008 election. Here is a guy that was out of work had a lien on a property for not paying taxes, and yet what is this guy worried about? The raise on taxes Obama was proposing on the top bracket. Why? Because some day he hoped to start his own business. What kind of person worries about raising taxes on the rich that cannot pay back taxes and is underemployed? A temporarily embarrassed millionaire. I've lost track of how many people I've met who can barely make ends meet or are deeply in debt and yet hold onto this philosophy. Isn't it a good thing that people have hope? Yes. But is it a good thing to live in a fantasy world and make decisions based on that fantasy while failing to live up to your obligations in your every day life? No, I think it is a terrible thing. A significant portion of Americans seem to live in a state of delusion. It's stupid for people who are un or under-employed and have no capital to vote for and advocate for those making millions because they themselves think they will get there eventually. This seems to happen quite a bit in America and nowhere else.

marknutter 11y ago
> What kind of person worries about raising taxes on the rich that cannot pay back taxes and is underemployed? A Straw Man
- padseeker 11y ago
  Who is the straw man? Joe? He's a real guy. And there are thousands like him.
  - krapp 11y ago
    There may be plenty of people who agree with him, but "Joe The Plumber" is a straw-populist agitant persona manufactured by the Republican party.
runamok 11y ago
Even though it may be against their interests someone may look at a person making one million a year, see they pay close to 50% of their income in taxes (if they live in California for instance) and think that's enough. The majority of our income taxes are paid by very high income people. They may also feel that if we tax them too punitively they'll leave or cheat or have less money to start/maintain businesses, etc. The top marginal tax rate is about %40 right? It used to be 90% in 1960 and 70% in 1980 although these kicked in at much higher amount of wealth than in the modern day. What do people think is 'fair' considering most do not even understand progressive taxes. 100 years ago there was no income tax. I personally think we spend too much and the main reason I support higher taxes on the rich (especially cap gains over a certain amount) is so it is not as easy to subvert the political system in their favor. I don't know what number is 'fair' though.

dragonwriter 11y ago

> I absolutely hate this quote; it gets parroted all the time as a smug and flippant criticism of the American Dream. Its not a criticism of the American Dream. > Isn't it a good thing that people see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires? No; it might be good if people saw themselves as aspiring millionaires, and acted sensible to achieve that aspiration. The whole thrust of the "temporarily embarrassed" quote is that the subjects see their condition as an inherently temporary condition that will resolve itself, and therefore act as if there interest were the interest of what their fantasized "normal" condition would be once that "temporary embarrassment" resolved itself. This, however, actively inhibits the realization of that condition -- which is not a "normal" condition to which things will resolve on their own.

wfo 11y ago

Once you realize the economy is a massive pyramid scheme, do you say there's probably a better way to do it than let the people on top exploit everyone below? Or do you say "Great, I'm the smarter, more successful, and inherently better than every other person in the universe I just haven't realized my full potential yet. The pyramid scheme means inevitably when I rise to the position I deserve I can stomp all over the peasant underclass"? That's what the quote is about.

randcraw 11y ago

But why does anyone dream of being a millionaire? From what I've read, most Americans want wealth not to gain something specific as much as to free them from want, from the pains of being poor. For 99% of us, I think the American Dream is about being respected and happy, not becoming a one percenter. It's only the one percenters who claim otherwise.

kafkaesq 11y ago

Isn't it a good thing that people see themselves as temporarily embarrassed millionaires? No, because it implies that the only way to better your situation is not just to do well, but to get on top, and make a killing. That is, literally: to have access to wealth and security that is (greatly) disproportionate to what most other have. Which (by definition) is unobtainable, for the vast majority. And which contributes to what we might call the "hollowing out of the middle." All structural factors (which others have cited as exacerbating factors to income equality in recent decades) aside -- the bottom line is that the middle class life not has not only come under pressure -- it just isn't valued as a goal, or a position to have in society. How is that any different than seeing yourself as a temporarily embarrassed rock star, or astronaut, or breakthrough scientist, or famous artist, or successful entrepreneur? Nothing wrong with wanting to achieve something great. If what interests you is the achievement in itself. But if the only way out of poverty (or middle class stagnation) is to become a "rock star" of some form or another -- that suggests that something is very, very wrong with the incentive and reward structure in a society -- like ours -- that implicitly holds that value structure.

unprepare 11y ago

so you are angry because you misunderstood the quote. got it. 'temporarily embarrassed ___' != 'dream of being ___' Why would it be embarrassing to dream of being an astronaut? its only embarrassing if you feel you are ENTITLED to being an astronaut. So yeah, i mean if you feel like entitlement is a positive and cornerstone piece of our society then you should continue disagreeing with the quote...

marknutter 11y ago
Well, if we're going to be pedantic about it then it's important to understand that the quote itself is misunderstood: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck#Disputed https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/John_Steinbeck#Disputed But regardless, I can't understand how anyone would understand that quote to meant that Americans feel like they are entitled to be Millionaires. Someone being embarrassed about not being something doesn't directly imply that they feel entitled to be that thing. More likely it means that they are working toward something they feel they ought to be able to achieve. Meaning they've always dreamt of themselves being millionaires but have yet to achieve it.