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This is a bummer. Most FBI agents are good people trying to help keep a lid on crime in their country. They don't deserve personal exposure or embarrassment for

This is a bummer. Most FBI agents are good people trying to help keep a lid on crime in their country. They don't deserve personal exposure or embarrassment for providing what is obviously a necessary, thankless, and underappreciated service. I'm waiting for the day that script kiddies do something useful, like emptying out everyone's credit file or deleting all the pending bills in a major hospital system's computer. Embarrassing and/or exposing normal individuals doesn't provide any real macro-level help to anybody.

viraptor 11y ago
I see where you're coming from, but "deleting all the pending bills in a major hospital system's computer"? In the best case that would affect hospital's budget, in the worst people will be chased by collection agencies due to mixup in records. Edit: actually the most realistic scenario - whoever's on call in IT gets to work the night restoring backups. Meanwhile doctors are pissed off and lose time, because they may not be able to update or trust the medical records, unless it can be proven they were not changed.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  Yeah, a well-implemented hack would make it more difficult than simply spending a night restoring backups. It would have to be more than a temporary breach to have a substantial effect. The concept is to make it impossible to do business under the existing conditions. If hospital systems are unable to bill their patients because their systems are constantly scrambled by vigilantes, it'll affect the cost-benefit calculation involved in continuing operation under their existing business model. Undoubtedly there would be confusion and misapplied bills involved. I don't see that as detrimental to the overarching cause. The only reason these systems are able to operate as-is is because their architects have devised a carefully fragmented and extremely confusing system that splits American society such that unity on the issue can't be achieved without substantial personal cost to the members of the more powerful/useful social factions. If someone can level that playing field, we'll be well on our way to substantive change. When the powerful people have to feel the indignity of getting their credit wrecked for a decade or more because their kid fell down at a playground and got a concussion, even though they took every precaution that the man said they'd have to take to survive this kind of routine nightmare semi-intact, the rules will change much faster. At present, the poor get their medical care pretty well taken care of through Medicaid. The rich don't care because they can throw infinity money at health problems (which is not to say they actually have to). It's the middle class that's getting raked over the coals, because they're not rich enough to force a change through monetary influence and they have too much to lose to force a change through social action. I'm really not even a single-payer or socialized medicine kind of guy, but the current system is the worst of all worlds. The ACA provided a few useful tweaks but overall the system is just getting worse and worse. It shouldn't be allowed to stand.
  - frankydp 11y ago
    Excellent commentary. Private markets with public motivations are super dangerous. On this specific issue we have ended up with the worst possible combination of a private/free market and a federal market behaving as a huge actor that operates outside of the free market system(ie no requirement to be profitable/sustainable). The presence of that almost majority actor drives decision making and behavior that completely cripples the free market relationship between the consumer and provider. The health care market was already barely a free market due to the nature of the service and availability. I also do not really care what system we have in the US single or federal, we just can not continue to ignore the repeated failures that "sorta" socialized programs leave in their wake.(CRA) Just one or the other.
valvar 11y ago
How are any of the things you mentioned useful? I think I can quite confidently say that the things you mention will probably cause more rather than less suffering in the long term. And it's exactly this type of naive disregard for the complexity of actions and their consequences that makes 'script kiddies' so harmful.
- omegaham 11y ago
  Yeah, seriously. Credit scores are what separate me from the idiots who are insolvent and going bankrupt. I would be pretty unhappy with paying higher interest for loans because some dickhead wiped the slate clean. "We're all equal now!" Yeah, and we're now all paying for it. Same exact thing with hospital billing - wipe that slate clean, the hospital has to take out loans to stay solvent, and they increase rates to compensate. And you know that they aren't going to be able to get anywhere with Medicaid or the insurance companies... so they're going to hit the people who are least equipped to take the even higher prices for medical care. Thanks, Mr. Script Kiddie!
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    >Credit scores are what separate me from the idiots who are insolvent and going bankrupt. You'd think that. I know a person that has gone bankrupt 5 times. He's always able to coax his credit score up within 2-3 years to rack up another 100k in credit card debt before he files for bankruptcy again, right on schedule. I also know responsible people who've been completely fucked over by insurance companies who refuse to pay claims based on their own clerical errors, among many other horror stories. Credit reporting is an unreliable, oppressive system, where your financial well-being is left in the hands of 3 companies that have minimal oversight and exist primarily to help lenders fuck the consumer out of money. Anyone who has your social security number can start reporting derogatory accounts on your credit and seriously hurt your life that way. Think twice before you fork that number over to the dental receptionist. The idea of this type of hack is to force a change in the methodology, not just to reset the counter. These hacks would have to be continuous service disruptions to be effective. They can't just do it once and let everything go back to normal. For what it's worth, my credit score is currently in the mid-700s. I personally believe this type of thing is inevitable. There are people in the government who recognize this too, and have been pushing for cybersecurity initiatives to prevent it (though these concerns have been co-opted by politicians for use in forcing down oppressive copyright and surveillance legislation, pleasing media company donors). There is a great deal of latent risk in this hyperconnected world. It'll be amazing and frightening to watch hacks at this type of scale play out. Like I said, I have no doubt whatsoever that they will.
nefitty 11y ago
I'd be surprised if this wasn't done by libertarian "activists". Either that, or any number of other radical terrorist sympathizers. I mean, imagine the philosophical steps that would get someone to the point where they feel justified in doxing thousands of federal agents. This probably wasn't a script kiddie, it was someone who aches to topple society.
- scrollaway 11y ago
  It could literally be anybody. Please stop making pointless assumptions.
- miguelrochefort 11y ago
  Although we don't know who's responsible for it (and fairly doesn't really matter), I think any transparency activist would consider this to be a step in the right direction. Looking forward to the next act of transparency.
joshschreuder 11y ago
I take it from your second paragraph you've seen Mr Robot?
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  I haven't. Does something like this happen in it? I should check it out.
venomsnake 11y ago
You don't want that. Because a script kid will change some of the info subtly instead of destroying it. Lets say alter randomly patients conditions and allergies. The results could be unpleasant.
whatnotests 11y ago
"Good people" don't work for Evil. They tear it down.

viraptor 11y ago

I see where you're coming from, but "deleting all the pending bills in a major hospital system's computer"? In the best case that would affect hospital's budget, in the worst people will be chased by collection agencies due to mixup in records. Edit: actually the most realistic scenario - whoever's on call in IT gets to work the night restoring backups. Meanwhile doctors are pissed off and lose time, because they may not be able to update or trust the medical records, unless it can be proven they were not changed.

cookiecaper 11y ago
Yeah, a well-implemented hack would make it more difficult than simply spending a night restoring backups. It would have to be more than a temporary breach to have a substantial effect. The concept is to make it impossible to do business under the existing conditions. If hospital systems are unable to bill their patients because their systems are constantly scrambled by vigilantes, it'll affect the cost-benefit calculation involved in continuing operation under their existing business model. Undoubtedly there would be confusion and misapplied bills involved. I don't see that as detrimental to the overarching cause. The only reason these systems are able to operate as-is is because their architects have devised a carefully fragmented and extremely confusing system that splits American society such that unity on the issue can't be achieved without substantial personal cost to the members of the more powerful/useful social factions. If someone can level that playing field, we'll be well on our way to substantive change. When the powerful people have to feel the indignity of getting their credit wrecked for a decade or more because their kid fell down at a playground and got a concussion, even though they took every precaution that the man said they'd have to take to survive this kind of routine nightmare semi-intact, the rules will change much faster. At present, the poor get their medical care pretty well taken care of through Medicaid. The rich don't care because they can throw infinity money at health problems (which is not to say they actually have to). It's the middle class that's getting raked over the coals, because they're not rich enough to force a change through monetary influence and they have too much to lose to force a change through social action. I'm really not even a single-payer or socialized medicine kind of guy, but the current system is the worst of all worlds. The ACA provided a few useful tweaks but overall the system is just getting worse and worse. It shouldn't be allowed to stand.
- frankydp 11y ago
  Excellent commentary. Private markets with public motivations are super dangerous. On this specific issue we have ended up with the worst possible combination of a private/free market and a federal market behaving as a huge actor that operates outside of the free market system(ie no requirement to be profitable/sustainable). The presence of that almost majority actor drives decision making and behavior that completely cripples the free market relationship between the consumer and provider. The health care market was already barely a free market due to the nature of the service and availability. I also do not really care what system we have in the US single or federal, we just can not continue to ignore the repeated failures that "sorta" socialized programs leave in their wake.(CRA) Just one or the other.

valvar 11y ago

How are any of the things you mentioned useful? I think I can quite confidently say that the things you mention will probably cause more rather than less suffering in the long term. And it's exactly this type of naive disregard for the complexity of actions and their consequences that makes 'script kiddies' so harmful.

omegaham 11y ago
Yeah, seriously. Credit scores are what separate me from the idiots who are insolvent and going bankrupt. I would be pretty unhappy with paying higher interest for loans because some dickhead wiped the slate clean. "We're all equal now!" Yeah, and we're now all paying for it. Same exact thing with hospital billing - wipe that slate clean, the hospital has to take out loans to stay solvent, and they increase rates to compensate. And you know that they aren't going to be able to get anywhere with Medicaid or the insurance companies... so they're going to hit the people who are least equipped to take the even higher prices for medical care. Thanks, Mr. Script Kiddie!
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  >Credit scores are what separate me from the idiots who are insolvent and going bankrupt. You'd think that. I know a person that has gone bankrupt 5 times. He's always able to coax his credit score up within 2-3 years to rack up another 100k in credit card debt before he files for bankruptcy again, right on schedule. I also know responsible people who've been completely fucked over by insurance companies who refuse to pay claims based on their own clerical errors, among many other horror stories. Credit reporting is an unreliable, oppressive system, where your financial well-being is left in the hands of 3 companies that have minimal oversight and exist primarily to help lenders fuck the consumer out of money. Anyone who has your social security number can start reporting derogatory accounts on your credit and seriously hurt your life that way. Think twice before you fork that number over to the dental receptionist. The idea of this type of hack is to force a change in the methodology, not just to reset the counter. These hacks would have to be continuous service disruptions to be effective. They can't just do it once and let everything go back to normal. For what it's worth, my credit score is currently in the mid-700s. I personally believe this type of thing is inevitable. There are people in the government who recognize this too, and have been pushing for cybersecurity initiatives to prevent it (though these concerns have been co-opted by politicians for use in forcing down oppressive copyright and surveillance legislation, pleasing media company donors). There is a great deal of latent risk in this hyperconnected world. It'll be amazing and frightening to watch hacks at this type of scale play out. Like I said, I have no doubt whatsoever that they will.

nefitty 11y ago

I'd be surprised if this wasn't done by libertarian "activists". Either that, or any number of other radical terrorist sympathizers. I mean, imagine the philosophical steps that would get someone to the point where they feel justified in doxing thousands of federal agents. This probably wasn't a script kiddie, it was someone who aches to topple society.

scrollaway 11y ago
It could literally be anybody. Please stop making pointless assumptions.
miguelrochefort 11y ago
Although we don't know who's responsible for it (and fairly doesn't really matter), I think any transparency activist would consider this to be a step in the right direction. Looking forward to the next act of transparency.

joshschreuder 11y ago

I take it from your second paragraph you've seen Mr Robot?

cookiecaper 11y ago
I haven't. Does something like this happen in it? I should check it out.

venomsnake 11y ago

You don't want that. Because a script kid will change some of the info subtly instead of destroying it. Lets say alter randomly patients conditions and allergies. The results could be unpleasant.

whatnotests 11y ago

"Good people" don't work for Evil. They tear it down.