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What about suburban family life was unpleasant? I'm curious what you think the upsides are for raising kids in a city, which I personally think is a bad idea.

What about suburban family life was unpleasant? I'm curious what you think the upsides are for raising kids in a city, which I personally think is a bad idea. Kids need an environment where they can go outside and be kids without all the difficulties a city adds.

techsupporter 11y ago
I'm not pnathan, but I grew up in the suburbs and am never going back; my spouse and I have raised our kid in the city for several years now. Why didn't I like it? - The sameness. Every house on the streets where I grew up looked virtually identical, as did the neighborhood where I bought my first house. It took owning a house in the 'burbs to remember how much I didn't like the cookie-cutter aspect. Doubly so for the fact that virtually every suburban neighborhood built in the past 20 years has an HOA, which I detest. - The distance. Going to anything, even just a Wal-Mart to get groceries, meant a minimum of 10 minutes just to get out of the "residential area" and make it to the "commercial area." The one corner store we had was usually under pressure from the city government and nearby residents to close down because of, allegedly, too much traffic. - Minimal cultural differences. Yes, my hometown had a Western Days Weekend and an Old Town District but that was it. The town where I bought my first house (this was a bad idea, in retrospect) didn't even bother with that. Everything else in both places was strip shopping centers or Wal-Mart or paved six-lane roadways to get people out of town to the big city for work and then back into town to get to sleep at night. Going to do anything, like a zoo or museum or a baseball game, meant a half-hour minimum drive. There are lots of suburbs in north Texas, let's say, that exist solely for zoning authority. You mentioned being outside and being kids. The city where I live now, Seattle, has a massive parks system. My tiny house on a tiny lot in the city still has about 1,600sqft of outdoor area to play in and a huge tree. Even the apartments we've rented have a courtyard and are near to parks and sidewalks and places to play. It's great for people whose kids are outdoor types; mine prefers to be inside with books and puzzles and computers. What I like about raising our kid in the city: Exposure to new and different ideas; most cities aren't self-selected to be the same as each other. A varying cityscape that isn't just the same houses feeding to the same street and to the same businesses. More cultural and entertainment options are close at hand. Being able to live in a more environmentally sensitive way (my kid doesn't want to learn how to drive and prefers to take transit and has made compost and recycle separating into a game).
- azernik 11y ago
  The distance I will totally back up. As a kid in a suburban area, I couldn't do anything without parents to drive me - meet friends, head to a decent park, go out to a movie. Of course, this can be fixed when you're old enough to get a car, but that adds a) expense for the parents, and b) a lot of danger. Having 16- and 17-year-olds driving everywhere might not be the best idea.
  - quicklyfrozen 11y ago
    I remember riding a bike pretty much everywhere within about a 20 mile radius of home (including a couple nearby small cities). (To be honest though I don't think any of our parents realized just how far we travelled or they might have objected -- on the other hand, I don't think they were that likely to start driving us everywhere back then either.)
    - azernik 11y ago
      In West LA in the 90s? No way any sane parent would let their kids bike on city streets. One of the things that's actually made me optimistic about suburban California is the proliferation of bike lanes. Definitely makes the whole environment more livable, for kids especially, and makes public transit a lot more practical for everyone.
  - akgerber 11y ago
    I grew up in an older suburb that still had sidewalks, so I could walk to friends houses, the park, and even a movie (the local theater is actually closer to my parents' house than my local theater is now in Brooklyn).
- pnathan 11y ago
  OT: waves - hi there fellow Seattleite!
  - techsupporter 11y ago
    Hello to you, too. Hopefully you can find something inside the city that makes you happy. There are still deals to be had, even on small 3BRs.
rayiner 11y ago
Suburbs are highly segregated economically and racially. I grew up in the Northern VA suburbs and didn't meet a black person until middle school. Suburbs also make kids totally dependent on their parents to get to activities, friends, etc. Finally, suburbs are incredibly dangerous. The #1 cause of death for teenagers is car accidents. Your 15-19 year old is a lot safer in the city than driving around the suburbs.
- matwood 11y ago
  Not all suburbs are created equal? I grew up in a suburb and only had to be driven to school (took the bus). My friends mostly lived in the same neighborhood and roughly 1/2 were black. The burb also gave me a lot of freedom. The only rules were not to cross the highway on one side or the rather large river on the other. There was a closed down school nearby along with a lot of parks so we had ample space for sports. Maybe you just don't like affluent, segregated suburbs?
  - abalashov 11y ago
    New vs. old might also be a factor. I live in Atlanta and detest virtually all Sun Belt development in the last few decades because it's so spread out. The suburbs in the Rust Belt, in places like South Bend, IN (where I spent my elementary school years), or Buffalo, NY, are a lot more dense and palatable in this regard. I'd still dislike living there, but it's a far cry from living truly, honest-to-god in the middle of nowhere in places like ATL, DFW, PHX...
    - yompers888 11y ago
      None of ATL, DFW, or PHX can honestly be described as the middle of nowhere. Perhaps "middle of nowhere" is just your strongest verbal condemnation of a location, but using it as such dilutes the quality of discussion by robbing it of precision. On a separate note, ATL, DFW, and PHX are all awful to me as well, but that's because of the life-draining sprawl, not because they're sparse. I fear for the future of housing every time I have a window seat in or out of ATL looking at those developments.
condescendence 11y ago
I'd argue the opposite to be honest. Kids need the difficulties they face in cities. I grew up in a half/half environment due to divorced parents and I can easily say that kids coming out of city schools have more 'life' skills. In this environment kids are forced to deal with many different cultures/backgrounds at a young age and learn the importance of getting to know other types of people. In suburban environments (I don't have a direct source right now, but it's sorta of widely accepted) kids often are among peers exactly like themselves. This really does nothing for development, especially if 90% of the school is of a certain race/culture...which typically happens in divided suburban environments. In addition to this, they are also exposed to the realities of life. Seeing homeless panhandling, the speed of the city, the ever changing environment, it's a good representation of what someone might face in life. Being exposed to these elements builds a stronger person. Sure they might have an overall different outcome of life, for example kids certainly aren't dirtbiking/atving in the city, but that all comes down to exposure, parenting, and self interest.
- tdfx 11y ago
  I'd just let to echo this. I personally grew up in one of these homogeneous, suburban environments and I feel like I acquired the meaningful life experiences that I truly needed much later than others who grew up in more urban environments. IMO, the "danger" of city life is incredibly overblown. I actually know far more people struggling with drug addiction in the suburbs where I grew up than in the city where I now live.
  - soylentcola 11y ago
    Not to mention the fact that the reason urban areas have a reputation for crime, drug abuse, and other "social ills" is in large part due to "white fight" as it were. Even setting aside the racial component for a second, it stands to reason that if cities are "tough" because everyone with the means toward a more stable and comfortable life moved to the suburbs, then many of those same issues with poverty and resulting crime and drug abuse would be lessened by un-segregating things. If cities are rough because it's accepted that anyone with the means will leave, then they become less so when the urban/suburban split doesn't mirror the poor/rich (or white/minority) split.
BoysenberryPi 11y ago
>Kids need an environment where they can go outside and be kids without all the difficulties a city adds. This is a completely subjective opinion being passed around as fact. My parents divorced when I was very young so I grew up going back and forth between houses. My mom lived in suburban areas and my dad lived in a more condensed area(not as condensed as Chicago/Baltimore but still not a suburb). I greatly preferred being with my dad just because of the area. Just because my friends and I didn't play basketball in the front yard doesn't mean we didn't have space to be a kid. We would walk to all the stores or just explore the city. If we wanted to run around and play then parks were abundant.
pnathan 11y ago
I've answered the starting question elsewhere in this thread. > Kids need an environment where they can go outside and be kids This is completely specifically isolated to your perception of what it means to be a kid. After doing minor reading on family history, what kids do, what it means to be a kid, and the environment they need are extremely culturally isolated to time and space. It's become obvious to me that practically anywhere can be a wholesome place to raise a child. For instance, what about a child in Mumbai today? Or the middle of Mexico City? Or Cairo? Are they so stunted? It simply doesn't compute that every child has to be raised in a suburban house to be a full adult with a happy childhood.
Jach 11y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf8jvSPA3XQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf8jvSPA3XQ That given, in hindsight I'm very grateful for my upbringing in a white, Mormon, newly-being-built-out-in-the-90s, right-on-the-foothills suburb in Utah. I made the decision to leave that culture, but after living and visiting around various places in the Seattle area and seeing all the "diversity", I'm unconvinced anything out here is really "better", just a different set of tradeoffs. (Lack of Depth being one of them.)
digbyloftus 11y ago
Cities make it easier for kids to go outside and be kids. The need for car transport that RcouF1uZ4gsC brings up applies to kids as much as adults. It limits who they can interact with down to a few kids from the local street and their activities to those parents are willing to drive them to which harms socialisation even more. Basic things like seeing a film with friends, playing a sport, or going on a date become way bigger deals than they otherwise need to be. Being the kid that always needed exact locations and times for things to be able to participate was always a huge PITA for me. I'd say at the very least that parents choosing the suburban life should do so understanding that they're signing themselves up for extreme taxi duty and that their child doesn't really have much power in deciding when things start/end. Actually, nowadays maybe Uber on your kids phone would do the job.
- mironathetin 11y ago
  "Cities make it easier for kids to go outside and be kids." The other way round. I grew up in the countryside and we could literally play on the streets without risk. Visiting friends was actually easier. We simply took the bike, the rollerskates or - later - a motor scooter. No need for any parent to drive anybody anywhere. No need to use public transportation. All my schoolmates lived in bike distance (that is 25 km in my definition). Of course it counts how safe your country or city is. It is our business to make them safe, not to hide in cars, because otherwise we may be harmed.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
    Again, it depends... I live out in the country. My 15 y-o son has one friend who lives within walking distance and his parents keep him pretty busy with extracurricular activities, so he's never home. When you're an adult, being close to nature sounds cool. When you're 15, it's boring beyond belief.
marssaxman 11y ago
In rural environments, you go outside and interact with nature; in urban environments, you go outside and interact with people. In the suburbs, you go outside, interact with nothing, wonder why you bothered, and go back inside. Suburbs are supposed to be safe, not interesting. Real estate investments from beginning to end, they focus entirely on private property, wasting space on public amenities only to whatever minimum is necessary to avoid alienating potential buyers. Suburbs are empty, tedious places unless you have a car you can escape in: raise a kid there and you're either committing them to the boob tube or taking up a second career as a taxi driver. My parents moved to a suburb of Sacramento when I was 8. I didn't mind at first, but it was a real letdown when I realized, after a few years, that we weren't going to be moving on this time. I couldn't understand why, when we'd been to so many interesting places, they chose THAT one to settle in! I grew to loathe the place and could not get far enough away when I was finally able to leave. To this day, I don't even like to visit suburban areas. I live a mile and a half from the center of Seattle and it still feels too suburban sometimes. I'd be a lot closer in if I could have afforded it when I was shopping for a house. I would not ever want to put a child of my own through a suburban upbringing.

techsupporter 11y ago

I'm not pnathan, but I grew up in the suburbs and am never going back; my spouse and I have raised our kid in the city for several years now. Why didn't I like it? - The sameness. Every house on the streets where I grew up looked virtually identical, as did the neighborhood where I bought my first house. It took owning a house in the 'burbs to remember how much I didn't like the cookie-cutter aspect. Doubly so for the fact that virtually every suburban neighborhood built in the past 20 years has an HOA, which I detest. - The distance. Going to anything, even just a Wal-Mart to get groceries, meant a minimum of 10 minutes just to get out of the "residential area" and make it to the "commercial area." The one corner store we had was usually under pressure from the city government and nearby residents to close down because of, allegedly, too much traffic. - Minimal cultural differences. Yes, my hometown had a Western Days Weekend and an Old Town District but that was it. The town where I bought my first house (this was a bad idea, in retrospect) didn't even bother with that. Everything else in both places was strip shopping centers or Wal-Mart or paved six-lane roadways to get people out of town to the big city for work and then back into town to get to sleep at night. Going to do anything, like a zoo or museum or a baseball game, meant a half-hour minimum drive. There are lots of suburbs in north Texas, let's say, that exist solely for zoning authority. You mentioned being outside and being kids. The city where I live now, Seattle, has a massive parks system. My tiny house on a tiny lot in the city still has about 1,600sqft of outdoor area to play in and a huge tree. Even the apartments we've rented have a courtyard and are near to parks and sidewalks and places to play. It's great for people whose kids are outdoor types; mine prefers to be inside with books and puzzles and computers. What I like about raising our kid in the city: Exposure to new and different ideas; most cities aren't self-selected to be the same as each other. A varying cityscape that isn't just the same houses feeding to the same street and to the same businesses. More cultural and entertainment options are close at hand. Being able to live in a more environmentally sensitive way (my kid doesn't want to learn how to drive and prefers to take transit and has made compost and recycle separating into a game).

azernik 11y ago
The distance I will totally back up. As a kid in a suburban area, I couldn't do anything without parents to drive me - meet friends, head to a decent park, go out to a movie. Of course, this can be fixed when you're old enough to get a car, but that adds a) expense for the parents, and b) a lot of danger. Having 16- and 17-year-olds driving everywhere might not be the best idea.
- quicklyfrozen 11y ago
  I remember riding a bike pretty much everywhere within about a 20 mile radius of home (including a couple nearby small cities). (To be honest though I don't think any of our parents realized just how far we travelled or they might have objected -- on the other hand, I don't think they were that likely to start driving us everywhere back then either.)
  - azernik 11y ago
    In West LA in the 90s? No way any sane parent would let their kids bike on city streets. One of the things that's actually made me optimistic about suburban California is the proliferation of bike lanes. Definitely makes the whole environment more livable, for kids especially, and makes public transit a lot more practical for everyone.
- akgerber 11y ago
  I grew up in an older suburb that still had sidewalks, so I could walk to friends houses, the park, and even a movie (the local theater is actually closer to my parents' house than my local theater is now in Brooklyn).
pnathan 11y ago
OT: waves - hi there fellow Seattleite!
- techsupporter 11y ago
  Hello to you, too. Hopefully you can find something inside the city that makes you happy. There are still deals to be had, even on small 3BRs.

rayiner 11y ago

Suburbs are highly segregated economically and racially. I grew up in the Northern VA suburbs and didn't meet a black person until middle school. Suburbs also make kids totally dependent on their parents to get to activities, friends, etc. Finally, suburbs are incredibly dangerous. The #1 cause of death for teenagers is car accidents. Your 15-19 year old is a lot safer in the city than driving around the suburbs.

matwood 11y ago
Not all suburbs are created equal? I grew up in a suburb and only had to be driven to school (took the bus). My friends mostly lived in the same neighborhood and roughly 1/2 were black. The burb also gave me a lot of freedom. The only rules were not to cross the highway on one side or the rather large river on the other. There was a closed down school nearby along with a lot of parks so we had ample space for sports. Maybe you just don't like affluent, segregated suburbs?
- abalashov 11y ago
  New vs. old might also be a factor. I live in Atlanta and detest virtually all Sun Belt development in the last few decades because it's so spread out. The suburbs in the Rust Belt, in places like South Bend, IN (where I spent my elementary school years), or Buffalo, NY, are a lot more dense and palatable in this regard. I'd still dislike living there, but it's a far cry from living truly, honest-to-god in the middle of nowhere in places like ATL, DFW, PHX...
  - yompers888 11y ago
    None of ATL, DFW, or PHX can honestly be described as the middle of nowhere. Perhaps "middle of nowhere" is just your strongest verbal condemnation of a location, but using it as such dilutes the quality of discussion by robbing it of precision. On a separate note, ATL, DFW, and PHX are all awful to me as well, but that's because of the life-draining sprawl, not because they're sparse. I fear for the future of housing every time I have a window seat in or out of ATL looking at those developments.

condescendence 11y ago

I'd argue the opposite to be honest. Kids need the difficulties they face in cities. I grew up in a half/half environment due to divorced parents and I can easily say that kids coming out of city schools have more 'life' skills. In this environment kids are forced to deal with many different cultures/backgrounds at a young age and learn the importance of getting to know other types of people. In suburban environments (I don't have a direct source right now, but it's sorta of widely accepted) kids often are among peers exactly like themselves. This really does nothing for development, especially if 90% of the school is of a certain race/culture...which typically happens in divided suburban environments. In addition to this, they are also exposed to the realities of life. Seeing homeless panhandling, the speed of the city, the ever changing environment, it's a good representation of what someone might face in life. Being exposed to these elements builds a stronger person. Sure they might have an overall different outcome of life, for example kids certainly aren't dirtbiking/atving in the city, but that all comes down to exposure, parenting, and self interest.

tdfx 11y ago
I'd just let to echo this. I personally grew up in one of these homogeneous, suburban environments and I feel like I acquired the meaningful life experiences that I truly needed much later than others who grew up in more urban environments. IMO, the "danger" of city life is incredibly overblown. I actually know far more people struggling with drug addiction in the suburbs where I grew up than in the city where I now live.
- soylentcola 11y ago
  Not to mention the fact that the reason urban areas have a reputation for crime, drug abuse, and other "social ills" is in large part due to "white fight" as it were. Even setting aside the racial component for a second, it stands to reason that if cities are "tough" because everyone with the means toward a more stable and comfortable life moved to the suburbs, then many of those same issues with poverty and resulting crime and drug abuse would be lessened by un-segregating things. If cities are rough because it's accepted that anyone with the means will leave, then they become less so when the urban/suburban split doesn't mirror the poor/rich (or white/minority) split.

BoysenberryPi 11y ago

>Kids need an environment where they can go outside and be kids without all the difficulties a city adds. This is a completely subjective opinion being passed around as fact. My parents divorced when I was very young so I grew up going back and forth between houses. My mom lived in suburban areas and my dad lived in a more condensed area(not as condensed as Chicago/Baltimore but still not a suburb). I greatly preferred being with my dad just because of the area. Just because my friends and I didn't play basketball in the front yard doesn't mean we didn't have space to be a kid. We would walk to all the stores or just explore the city. If we wanted to run around and play then parks were abundant.

pnathan 11y ago

I've answered the starting question elsewhere in this thread. > Kids need an environment where they can go outside and be kids This is completely specifically isolated to your perception of what it means to be a kid. After doing minor reading on family history, what kids do, what it means to be a kid, and the environment they need are extremely culturally isolated to time and space. It's become obvious to me that practically anywhere can be a wholesome place to raise a child. For instance, what about a child in Mumbai today? Or the middle of Mexico City? Or Cairo? Are they so stunted? It simply doesn't compute that every child has to be raised in a suburban house to be a full adult with a happy childhood.

Jach 11y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf8jvSPA3XQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vf8jvSPA3XQ That given, in hindsight I'm very grateful for my upbringing in a white, Mormon, newly-being-built-out-in-the-90s, right-on-the-foothills suburb in Utah. I made the decision to leave that culture, but after living and visiting around various places in the Seattle area and seeing all the "diversity", I'm unconvinced anything out here is really "better", just a different set of tradeoffs. (Lack of Depth being one of them.)

digbyloftus 11y ago

Cities make it easier for kids to go outside and be kids. The need for car transport that RcouF1uZ4gsC brings up applies to kids as much as adults. It limits who they can interact with down to a few kids from the local street and their activities to those parents are willing to drive them to which harms socialisation even more. Basic things like seeing a film with friends, playing a sport, or going on a date become way bigger deals than they otherwise need to be. Being the kid that always needed exact locations and times for things to be able to participate was always a huge PITA for me. I'd say at the very least that parents choosing the suburban life should do so understanding that they're signing themselves up for extreme taxi duty and that their child doesn't really have much power in deciding when things start/end. Actually, nowadays maybe Uber on your kids phone would do the job.

mironathetin 11y ago
"Cities make it easier for kids to go outside and be kids." The other way round. I grew up in the countryside and we could literally play on the streets without risk. Visiting friends was actually easier. We simply took the bike, the rollerskates or - later - a motor scooter. No need for any parent to drive anybody anywhere. No need to use public transportation. All my schoolmates lived in bike distance (that is 25 km in my definition). Of course it counts how safe your country or city is. It is our business to make them safe, not to hide in cars, because otherwise we may be harmed.
- HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
  Again, it depends... I live out in the country. My 15 y-o son has one friend who lives within walking distance and his parents keep him pretty busy with extracurricular activities, so he's never home. When you're an adult, being close to nature sounds cool. When you're 15, it's boring beyond belief.

marssaxman 11y ago

In rural environments, you go outside and interact with nature; in urban environments, you go outside and interact with people. In the suburbs, you go outside, interact with nothing, wonder why you bothered, and go back inside. Suburbs are supposed to be safe, not interesting. Real estate investments from beginning to end, they focus entirely on private property, wasting space on public amenities only to whatever minimum is necessary to avoid alienating potential buyers. Suburbs are empty, tedious places unless you have a car you can escape in: raise a kid there and you're either committing them to the boob tube or taking up a second career as a taxi driver. My parents moved to a suburb of Sacramento when I was 8. I didn't mind at first, but it was a real letdown when I realized, after a few years, that we weren't going to be moving on this time. I couldn't understand why, when we'd been to so many interesting places, they chose THAT one to settle in! I grew to loathe the place and could not get far enough away when I was finally able to leave. To this day, I don't even like to visit suburban areas. I live a mile and a half from the center of Seattle and it still feels too suburban sometimes. I'd be a lot closer in if I could have afforded it when I was shopping for a house. I would not ever want to put a child of my own through a suburban upbringing.