5 ms·

Gas should be more expensive in the USA. Sounds like a good idea.

donatj 11y ago
The price of gas is linked to the price of everything through shipping and transport. The lower the price of gas, the stronger your buying power. There's no upside to a high price of gasoline.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Except for decreased usage of gasoline and thus a decrease in the externalities of using gasoline.
  - sosuke 11y ago
    No one stopped buying gas at $4 a gallon but they did stop spending money elsewhere to make up for it.
    - raldi 11y ago
      That's not true! I specifically remember reading, back when gas broke $4 a gallon, that we had finally discovered the price at which drivers change their habits. Below $4, rising prices just made them complain. But above that price, we started seeing statistically-significant changes in demand.
      - sosuke 11y ago
        I think you're right there is a tipping point. I do feel that there is a flex point where drivers change recreational driving but they will still need to get to work and the grocery store. They won't go on fun trips though.
    - Sanddancer 11y ago
      Vehicle miles driven went down during that time period. Additionally, there was an increase in the sale of more efficient vehicles, so people indeed did buy less gas.
    - douche 11y ago
      You know what was awesome about $4 gasoline? $3.75 heating oil.
    - qrendel 11y ago
      It will definitely strongly affect the type of car I buy next when I'm done running the current one into the ground.
  - donatj 11y ago
    A decrease in gasoline usage is by definition a recession. It is people being unable to be productive.
  - baddox 11y ago
    To clarify or perhaps nitpick, if the price of gas included the cost of its damage to the environment (and all other current externalities), then there would be no externalities, and decreasing the usage of gasoline wouldn't be a desirable economic goal.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      Right, but then, that's exactly the point of taxing it, which the parent commenter was recoiling from, because it raised prices. :)
  - mikecb 11y ago
    There's some interesting evidence of gasoline being a giffen good for some segments of the market: budget constrained will spend less on vehicle maintenance when the price of gas goes up, thus lowering their vehicle's efficiency, and buying more gasoline.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Dylan16807 11y ago
  You're mixing up price and value to an extent. The money's not being set on fire, it's going to other useful things. The question is whether those things are worth more or less than discount gasoline.
  - donatj 11y ago
    It's largely being set on fire through bureaucracy in practice. I would get much much more out of the money myself than I do from the government. Let's say this costs me a thousand dollars a year out of pocket. I could get a new computer and add a lot of value to the economy. Or the government could buy a square foot of pavement.
    - rickycook 11y ago
      it's your taxes that build the systems that allow you to buy that laptop
      - waterlesscloud 11y ago
        It's also affordable energy building and sustaining those systems.
- raldi 11y ago
  That's why it should be revenue-neutral. Every dollar the government brings in via higher fuel taxes, it should offset by reducing taxes somewhere else. The average fuel consumer breaks even. People with low carbon footprints come out ahead. People with abnormally high carbon footprints lose. Seems perfect to me.
- alphapapa 11y ago
  Of course there is: the more people can't afford to meet their own needs, the more people will be dependent on government programs. Oh, wait, you said "upside"...
- jhulla 11y ago
  "No upside to a high price of gasoline." This is not true. In no particular order, and off the top of my head, the rapid disinflation in the price of oil is currently: 1. Wreaking havoc on the budgets of most oil exporting nations. 2. Destroying purchasing power through currency devaluation in Russia, Nigeria, across the Middle East and Latin America. 3. Crushing the economies of parts of Canada, Alaska, and the Dakotas. 4. Directly causing job losses in Texas. 5. Negatively impacting the Houston office markets. 6. Destroying earnings of publicly traded oil companies. 7. Reducing stock market valuations of said companies. 8. Reducing portfolio values. 9. Impacting earnings of banks that have extended credit to oil firms.
  - Fjolsvith 11y ago
    Yeah, but my portable building factory is shipping more often. People have less of a delivery fee to pay and it makes them more likely to purchase. Additionally, my materials costs have been slowly dropping as their shipping costs are dropping. Win - win!
randyrand 11y ago
No it shouldn't. For the same reason you gave.
alphapapa 11y ago
"Hey, Mom, are we going to visit grandma and grandpa for Christmas this year?" "Sorry, sweetie, gas is too expensive. We can't go this year." "Honey, are we going to finally take a vacation this year?" "Sorry, sweetheart, I just don't think we can afford it. It would cost too much to make the trip." "Hey, Mom, can I sign up for the traveling baseball team this summer?" "I'm sorry, dear, we can't afford all that extra driving every week." "Dad, can I apply for that job on the other side of town?" "Sorry, son, I can't afford to drive you back and forth to work every day on top of all the other driving I have to do." "Son, can you drive me to my chemo treatments in Big City this month?" "I'm sorry, Dad, but I can't afford to drive that extra 500 miles a week." Those are just the kinds of issues that come up as a direct result. The increased cost of everything in the economy means that everything from eating out, to going to the movies, to getting the braces that your 14-year-old needs becomes more difficult for the average American. The question is, what kind of person wants other people to remain in poverty, and why?
- thrownaway2424 11y ago
  This is a distinctly ignorant American perspective on things. In civilized countries the conversation goes like this: "Hey Mom, are we going to visit grandma for Christmas this year?" "Yes dear, I booked the train tickets last month."
  - marcoperaza 11y ago
    Thank God this "uncivilized" and "ignorant" country bailed you all out from the Nazis and Soviets and put an end to hundreds of years of Europeans slaughtering each other. Trying to cast a whole nation as ignorant and uncivilized, because of cars vs trains of all things, I think reveals a lot more about you than about America. Our cars have served us pretty well, seeing that the poorest US state is wealthier per capita than almost all Western European countries, including Britain, France, and Germany. Of course, cars are not the main reason for America's success, but they don't seem to have held us back much.
    - dang 11y ago

The price of gas is linked to the price of everything through shipping and transport. The lower the price of gas, the stronger your buying power. There's no upside to a high price of gasoline.

tptacek 11y ago
Except for decreased usage of gasoline and thus a decrease in the externalities of using gasoline.
- sosuke 11y ago
  No one stopped buying gas at $4 a gallon but they did stop spending money elsewhere to make up for it.
  - raldi 11y ago
    That's not true! I specifically remember reading, back when gas broke $4 a gallon, that we had finally discovered the price at which drivers change their habits. Below $4, rising prices just made them complain. But above that price, we started seeing statistically-significant changes in demand.
    - sosuke 11y ago
      I think you're right there is a tipping point. I do feel that there is a flex point where drivers change recreational driving but they will still need to get to work and the grocery store. They won't go on fun trips though.
  - Sanddancer 11y ago
    Vehicle miles driven went down during that time period. Additionally, there was an increase in the sale of more efficient vehicles, so people indeed did buy less gas.
  - douche 11y ago
    You know what was awesome about $4 gasoline? $3.75 heating oil.
  - qrendel 11y ago
    It will definitely strongly affect the type of car I buy next when I'm done running the current one into the ground.
- donatj 11y ago
  A decrease in gasoline usage is by definition a recession. It is people being unable to be productive.
- baddox 11y ago
  To clarify or perhaps nitpick, if the price of gas included the cost of its damage to the environment (and all other current externalities), then there would be no externalities, and decreasing the usage of gasoline wouldn't be a desirable economic goal.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Right, but then, that's exactly the point of taxing it, which the parent commenter was recoiling from, because it raised prices. :)
- mikecb 11y ago
  There's some interesting evidence of gasoline being a giffen good for some segments of the market: budget constrained will spend less on vehicle maintenance when the price of gas goes up, thus lowering their vehicle's efficiency, and buying more gasoline.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
Dylan16807 11y ago
You're mixing up price and value to an extent. The money's not being set on fire, it's going to other useful things. The question is whether those things are worth more or less than discount gasoline.
- donatj 11y ago
  It's largely being set on fire through bureaucracy in practice. I would get much much more out of the money myself than I do from the government. Let's say this costs me a thousand dollars a year out of pocket. I could get a new computer and add a lot of value to the economy. Or the government could buy a square foot of pavement.
  - rickycook 11y ago
    it's your taxes that build the systems that allow you to buy that laptop
    - waterlesscloud 11y ago
      It's also affordable energy building and sustaining those systems.
raldi 11y ago
That's why it should be revenue-neutral. Every dollar the government brings in via higher fuel taxes, it should offset by reducing taxes somewhere else. The average fuel consumer breaks even. People with low carbon footprints come out ahead. People with abnormally high carbon footprints lose. Seems perfect to me.
alphapapa 11y ago
Of course there is: the more people can't afford to meet their own needs, the more people will be dependent on government programs. Oh, wait, you said "upside"...
jhulla 11y ago
"No upside to a high price of gasoline." This is not true. In no particular order, and off the top of my head, the rapid disinflation in the price of oil is currently: 1. Wreaking havoc on the budgets of most oil exporting nations. 2. Destroying purchasing power through currency devaluation in Russia, Nigeria, across the Middle East and Latin America. 3. Crushing the economies of parts of Canada, Alaska, and the Dakotas. 4. Directly causing job losses in Texas. 5. Negatively impacting the Houston office markets. 6. Destroying earnings of publicly traded oil companies. 7. Reducing stock market valuations of said companies. 8. Reducing portfolio values. 9. Impacting earnings of banks that have extended credit to oil firms.
- Fjolsvith 11y ago
  Yeah, but my portable building factory is shipping more often. People have less of a delivery fee to pay and it makes them more likely to purchase. Additionally, my materials costs have been slowly dropping as their shipping costs are dropping. Win - win!

randyrand 11y ago

No it shouldn't. For the same reason you gave.

alphapapa 11y ago

"Hey, Mom, are we going to visit grandma and grandpa for Christmas this year?" "Sorry, sweetie, gas is too expensive. We can't go this year." "Honey, are we going to finally take a vacation this year?" "Sorry, sweetheart, I just don't think we can afford it. It would cost too much to make the trip." "Hey, Mom, can I sign up for the traveling baseball team this summer?" "I'm sorry, dear, we can't afford all that extra driving every week." "Dad, can I apply for that job on the other side of town?" "Sorry, son, I can't afford to drive you back and forth to work every day on top of all the other driving I have to do." "Son, can you drive me to my chemo treatments in Big City this month?" "I'm sorry, Dad, but I can't afford to drive that extra 500 miles a week." Those are just the kinds of issues that come up as a direct result. The increased cost of everything in the economy means that everything from eating out, to going to the movies, to getting the braces that your 14-year-old needs becomes more difficult for the average American. The question is, what kind of person wants other people to remain in poverty, and why?

thrownaway2424 11y ago
This is a distinctly ignorant American perspective on things. In civilized countries the conversation goes like this: "Hey Mom, are we going to visit grandma for Christmas this year?" "Yes dear, I booked the train tickets last month."
- marcoperaza 11y ago
  Thank God this "uncivilized" and "ignorant" country bailed you all out from the Nazis and Soviets and put an end to hundreds of years of Europeans slaughtering each other. Trying to cast a whole nation as ignorant and uncivilized, because of cars vs trains of all things, I think reveals a lot more about you than about America. Our cars have served us pretty well, seeing that the poorest US state is wealthier per capita than almost all Western European countries, including Britain, France, and Germany. Of course, cars are not the main reason for America's success, but they don't seem to have held us back much.
  - dang 11y ago