4 ms·

Very few software engineers are in the top 1% of U.S. earners. That is over $400,000 annual income.

by tdeck 11y ago

mc808 11y ago
The poverty line in the US (before benefits) is about 3-4 times the median income worldwide. The median income in the US is in the top 2% worldwide. Almost everyone with Internet access is in the top 10%.
adventured 11y ago
I think you'd be surprised. Per tax data from 1979-2005, out of the top professions in the 1%, computer/math/technical/engineering (non-finance) are the #5 group by population, representing 5% to 6% of the total (lawyers are #4 at around 8%). It's fair to say there are likely in fact lots of software engineers in the top 1%. There are also likely to be far more software engineers in a summed five to ten year measurement, than in any given year. The top 1% has a fairly high turn-over rate, in which a large percentage of the top 1% do not stay in that category year after year after year. Good software engineers have far more stable earning power over time than many of the people that make up the high earners (CEOs that get one-off bonus pay or options; sales workers with a big year, such as in real-estate; one-off dividends from owning part of a business; gains from a business sale). If you measured a high earning software engineer across five years, they'd come out a lot higher than any given year would otherwise indicate.
- tdeck 11y ago
  My point was to refute the myth that "we, software engineers (assuming you're one), are in the 1%" which is patently untrue as a generalization. Five percent of the top 1% of earners in the US is a very small number of people compared to the number of software engineers in the country. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics[1], an income of $149,000 would put you in the top 10% of the software engineering profession. The medium annual wage for software engineers at all levels is around $100k. That's definitely better than many professions, but it doesn't even begin to approach the level of inequality we're talking about when we talk about the 1%. [1]: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... EDIT: This doesn't even take into account the fact that other related titles like Computer Programmer (which, despite being a less fashionable job description of late, is often the same as what a "software engineer" would be doing) have significantly lower medians and are broken out separately.
  - meric 11y ago
    I was thinking 1% of the whole world when I typed that sentence.[1] If we're talking about the U.S. I'll use the number 2, and my point will stand. [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082385/We-1--You-need-34k-income-global-elite--half-worlds-richest-live-U-S.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082385/We-1--You-ne...
MrTonyD 11y ago
And, I would add, I've been around several multi-billionaires. They have already transferred the wealth to themselves, and the "income" numbers will show them receiving relatively small incomes. They use offshores to do their transactions (and avoid taxes on the income). So, really, the IRS numbers vastly mislead us about who the 1% are and how much they really have. (I read one study that estimated the total US offshore hidden money to be about 30 trillion. And when you consider that the rich are spread throughout the world, you have to wonder just how much money they have really hidden away for themselves.)
eqdw 11y ago
Not true. In 2014, the 99th percentile of personal income was was $240k, and the 99th percentile of household income was $330k. http://i.imgur.com/cCmRisG.png http://i.imgur.com/cCmRisG.png source http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2014/09/what-is-your-income-percentile-ranking.html http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2014/09/what-is-yo... $250k is a realistic number for the upper tier of software engineers to make in Silicon Valley. If you work for one of the big companies, your stock options will get you pretty close to that. If you're a manager, bonuses and incentive pay will also bridge the gap. If you're an independent consultant and you're not making at least this much, you're really missing the boat. Are you a senior software engineer, or middle management or higher? Is you partner also? Then it's _highly_ likely that your household is a 1% household More importantly, the IRS considers any group of people who live together to be a household. I know of many people here in SF who have two, three, four roommates, each making six figures in tech. Essentially all of those households are 1% households. As an aside, I've pointed this out to several people I know. Without fail, they always have reasons why they don't count. "Oh cost of living is too high". "Oh, I have to pay back student loans, my disposable income isn't this". "Oh, sure I make this much but look at my taxes". In reality, describing "the 1%" is not a useful description. For one, many of the 1% are people living middle class lives in high cost-of-living areas. On the one hand, it is true that in dollar terms these people are, literally, in the 1%. But they don't live the lifestyles that people think of when they say 1%. And if you think about it, that makes sense. By definition, one in every 100 Americans are in the 1%. That's three million people. We don't have any chance of solving economic disparity problems when our intuitions are so wildly off base from our rhetoric and our actions. Wish more people would think these things through
- tdeck 11y ago
  I'm going to push back on this yet again. My thesis is not that no software engineers are members of the "1%", it is that generalizations that apply to "the upper tier of software engineers in Silicon Valley" who work for big companies are not reasonable generalizations to make about all software engineers who read Hacker News, which is the subject of this thread.

Very few software engineers are in the top 1% of U.S. earners. That is over $400,000 annual income.

by tdeck 11y ago

Very few software engineers are in the top 1% of U.S. earners. That is over $400,000 annual income.

mc808 11y ago

The poverty line in the US (before benefits) is about 3-4 times the median income worldwide. The median income in the US is in the top 2% worldwide. Almost everyone with Internet access is in the top 10%.

adventured 11y ago

I think you'd be surprised. Per tax data from 1979-2005, out of the top professions in the 1%, computer/math/technical/engineering (non-finance) are the #5 group by population, representing 5% to 6% of the total (lawyers are #4 at around 8%). It's fair to say there are likely in fact lots of software engineers in the top 1%. There are also likely to be far more software engineers in a summed five to ten year measurement, than in any given year. The top 1% has a fairly high turn-over rate, in which a large percentage of the top 1% do not stay in that category year after year after year. Good software engineers have far more stable earning power over time than many of the people that make up the high earners (CEOs that get one-off bonus pay or options; sales workers with a big year, such as in real-estate; one-off dividends from owning part of a business; gains from a business sale). If you measured a high earning software engineer across five years, they'd come out a lot higher than any given year would otherwise indicate.

tdeck 11y ago
My point was to refute the myth that "we, software engineers (assuming you're one), are in the 1%" which is patently untrue as a generalization. Five percent of the top 1% of earners in the US is a very small number of people compared to the number of software engineers in the country. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics[1], an income of $149,000 would put you in the top 10% of the software engineering profession. The medium annual wage for software engineers at all levels is around $100k. That's definitely better than many professions, but it doesn't even begin to approach the level of inequality we're talking about when we talk about the 1%. [1]: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... EDIT: This doesn't even take into account the fact that other related titles like Computer Programmer (which, despite being a less fashionable job description of late, is often the same as what a "software engineer" would be doing) have significantly lower medians and are broken out separately.
- meric 11y ago
  I was thinking 1% of the whole world when I typed that sentence.[1] If we're talking about the U.S. I'll use the number 2, and my point will stand. [1] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082385/We-1--You-need-34k-income-global-elite--half-worlds-richest-live-U-S.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2082385/We-1--You-ne...

MrTonyD 11y ago

And, I would add, I've been around several multi-billionaires. They have already transferred the wealth to themselves, and the "income" numbers will show them receiving relatively small incomes. They use offshores to do their transactions (and avoid taxes on the income). So, really, the IRS numbers vastly mislead us about who the 1% are and how much they really have. (I read one study that estimated the total US offshore hidden money to be about 30 trillion. And when you consider that the rich are spread throughout the world, you have to wonder just how much money they have really hidden away for themselves.)

eqdw 11y ago

Not true. In 2014, the 99th percentile of personal income was was $240k, and the 99th percentile of household income was $330k. http://i.imgur.com/cCmRisG.png http://i.imgur.com/cCmRisG.png source http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2014/09/what-is-your-income-percentile-ranking.html http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2014/09/what-is-yo... $250k is a realistic number for the upper tier of software engineers to make in Silicon Valley. If you work for one of the big companies, your stock options will get you pretty close to that. If you're a manager, bonuses and incentive pay will also bridge the gap. If you're an independent consultant and you're not making at least this much, you're really missing the boat. Are you a senior software engineer, or middle management or higher? Is you partner also? Then it's _highly_ likely that your household is a 1% household More importantly, the IRS considers any group of people who live together to be a household. I know of many people here in SF who have two, three, four roommates, each making six figures in tech. Essentially all of those households are 1% households. As an aside, I've pointed this out to several people I know. Without fail, they always have reasons why they don't count. "Oh cost of living is too high". "Oh, I have to pay back student loans, my disposable income isn't this". "Oh, sure I make this much but look at my taxes". In reality, describing "the 1%" is not a useful description. For one, many of the 1% are people living middle class lives in high cost-of-living areas. On the one hand, it is true that in dollar terms these people are, literally, in the 1%. But they don't live the lifestyles that people think of when they say 1%. And if you think about it, that makes sense. By definition, one in every 100 Americans are in the 1%. That's three million people. We don't have any chance of solving economic disparity problems when our intuitions are so wildly off base from our rhetoric and our actions. Wish more people would think these things through

tdeck 11y ago
I'm going to push back on this yet again. My thesis is not that no software engineers are members of the "1%", it is that generalizations that apply to "the upper tier of software engineers in Silicon Valley" who work for big companies are not reasonable generalizations to make about all software engineers who read Hacker News, which is the subject of this thread.