4 ms·

I would like to see more laws to help create a better work environment for everyone. We all spend most of our time at work -- yet, somehow, we seem to give up e

by MrTonyD 11y ago

I would like to see more laws to help create a better work environment for everyone. We all spend most of our time at work -- yet, somehow, we seem to give up every right as a human being when we become employees. I do think that "hire/fire at will" is acceptable - but we should have decent lives and a great social safety net at the same time. After all, we live in a time where incredible wealth is being created (it just seems to be hoarded by the 1%)

meric 11y ago
You think we'll have more wealth if only we made things more equal. But that's not true, because we, software engineers (assuming you're one), are in the 1%. Making a better work environment for most people by making things more equal will likely make a worse work environment for software engineers. Yes, it's a worthy goal, but don't pursue it for the sake of a better work environment for yourself. Be prepared to lose a lot of good things in life. It's only when you're willing to sacrifice your own living standard for the sake of a better environment for most people, you can sincerely tell yourself, you're different to the 0.01%. It's the mindset "We can make our lives better by taking things from some other people not related to us" that's dangerous.
- specialist 11y ago
  Human society, culture advances when zero sum scenarios are replaced with win/win variants. Where's the joy in having material wealth if I have to step over the homeless while going about my daily business? Or require additional security measures to feel safe? I very much advocate a more equitable society for very selfish reasons. I want to be left alone. The math and logic of reciprocal altruism directly challenges the zealotry of Freedom Markets(tm). But it's just a different kind of selfishness.
  - meric 11y ago
    Yes, I agree. It's important not to chase for an "more equitable society" thinking you can work less, have better stuff, have a better working environment. You're trading extrinsic benefits for intrinsic benefits. Be prepared to be a lot more poorer, as you see the people who are poorest get a little less poor.
- tdeck 11y ago
  Very few software engineers are in the top 1% of U.S. earners. That is over $400,000 annual income.
  - mc808 11y ago
    The poverty line in the US (before benefits) is about 3-4 times the median income worldwide. The median income in the US is in the top 2% worldwide. Almost everyone with Internet access is in the top 10%.
  - adventured 11y ago
    I think you'd be surprised. Per tax data from 1979-2005, out of the top professions in the 1%, computer/math/technical/engineering (non-finance) are the #5 group by population, representing 5% to 6% of the total (lawyers are #4 at around 8%). It's fair to say there are likely in fact lots of software engineers in the top 1%. There are also likely to be far more software engineers in a summed five to ten year measurement, than in any given year. The top 1% has a fairly high turn-over rate, in which a large percentage of the top 1% do not stay in that category year after year after year. Good software engineers have far more stable earning power over time than many of the people that make up the high earners (CEOs that get one-off bonus pay or options; sales workers with a big year, such as in real-estate; one-off dividends from owning part of a business; gains from a business sale). If you measured a high earning software engineer across five years, they'd come out a lot higher than any given year would otherwise indicate.
    - tdeck 11y ago
      My point was to refute the myth that "we, software engineers (assuming you're one), are in the 1%" which is patently untrue as a generalization. Five percent of the top 1% of earners in the US is a very small number of people compared to the number of software engineers in the country. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics[1], an income of $149,000 would put you in the top 10% of the software engineering profession. The medium annual wage for software engineers at all levels is around $100k. That's definitely better than many professions, but it doesn't even begin to approach the level of inequality we're talking about when we talk about the 1%. [1]: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... EDIT: This doesn't even take into account the fact that other related titles like Computer Programmer (which, despite being a less fashionable job description of late, is often the same as what a "software engineer" would be doing) have significantly lower medians and are broken out separately.
bobby_9x 11y ago
"We all spend most of our time at work -- yet, somehow, we seem to give up every right as a human being when we become employees." Workers in the IT industry probably have the cushiest jobs in the world. You make way above minimum wage, you aren't risking your life, and your job can be done from the comfort of a heated or cooled office environment. I'm not sure what rights you think you are giving away as an employee. Employee/Employer relationships are usually legally bound by a contract. You are free to change the contract or question it before you work there. If you choose not to do this or don't want to take the time and effort into finding another job, it's no fault but your own. I think what's missing is education. Most people are so complacent, they don't want to read anything they sign and then act surprised when it contains something undesirable. I've crossed out and questioned plenty of employee contracts. Most businesses will work with you on this. I also don't know what more laws you want. As a business, you have to be so careful as to not step on someone's toes or offend them or you will find yourself in a lawsuit. Employees have nearly all the power in today's society (especially with hashtag warriors starting digital riots against companies that do any little thing they don't like), and somehow you think you need more? It just doesn't make any sense to me beyond pure greed and entitlement. "After all, we live in a time where incredible wealth is being created (it just seems to be hoarded by the 1%)" Worldwide, you are in the top 1% if you are making more than ~$30,000/year. I know the current narrative is to punish the 1% for 'hoarding' money and somehow screwing you out of your earnings, but it's just not happening.
- MrTonyD 11y ago
  "IT industry probably have the cushiest jobs" This isn't selfishly just about me, this is about what makes sense for our society. "Employee/Employer relationships are usually legally bound by a contract" There is a long history of contract terms being set by the more powerful party - and it is almost always workers who need the job and have less power. "it's no fault but your own" This completely ignores that opportunities are defined by our society - and the US has very low economic mobility. "what's missing is education" For over a decade education has not provided an improved salary in spite of much improved GDP. The perception of better salary has been shown to be lowered salary for the rest of society (excluding the 1% of course.) "what more laws you want" We could start by emulating other countries. Denmark workers join Unions which are funded through government. Flexcurity offsets "at will employment" with a great social safety net and free education. Corporatism creates "interest groups" which can be involved with decision-making for employers and industries. Some countries require employees on the board. Some countries only purchase from companies with transparent finances (no offshores). And these are just some techniques proven to work, there are many others which may be a good idea.
pc86 11y ago
I don't want to get too far into pedantic nonsense, but most of your time is not spent at work unless you are working far too much. Even at a full 40 hour work week, that's only 1/3 of your day for a part of the week. Even if you get 9 hours of sleep every night, it's still well under half your waking hours. For most people, especially us privileged white collar technology workers, the ability exists to show up at work, punch a clock and get something done, then go home and do whatever we want.
- MrTonyD 11y ago
  If you have a life and job like that, you should definitely hold on to it. It certainly doesn't sound like the past 15 years I've spent in Silicon Valley. With commute and flights and extra hours and company events, I'm confident that work is the biggest component of my life.

by MrTonyD 11y ago

meric 11y ago

You think we'll have more wealth if only we made things more equal. But that's not true, because we, software engineers (assuming you're one), are in the 1%. Making a better work environment for most people by making things more equal will likely make a worse work environment for software engineers. Yes, it's a worthy goal, but don't pursue it for the sake of a better work environment for yourself. Be prepared to lose a lot of good things in life. It's only when you're willing to sacrifice your own living standard for the sake of a better environment for most people, you can sincerely tell yourself, you're different to the 0.01%. It's the mindset "We can make our lives better by taking things from some other people not related to us" that's dangerous.

specialist 11y ago
Human society, culture advances when zero sum scenarios are replaced with win/win variants. Where's the joy in having material wealth if I have to step over the homeless while going about my daily business? Or require additional security measures to feel safe? I very much advocate a more equitable society for very selfish reasons. I want to be left alone. The math and logic of reciprocal altruism directly challenges the zealotry of Freedom Markets(tm). But it's just a different kind of selfishness.
- meric 11y ago
  Yes, I agree. It's important not to chase for an "more equitable society" thinking you can work less, have better stuff, have a better working environment. You're trading extrinsic benefits for intrinsic benefits. Be prepared to be a lot more poorer, as you see the people who are poorest get a little less poor.
tdeck 11y ago
Very few software engineers are in the top 1% of U.S. earners. That is over $400,000 annual income.
- mc808 11y ago
  The poverty line in the US (before benefits) is about 3-4 times the median income worldwide. The median income in the US is in the top 2% worldwide. Almost everyone with Internet access is in the top 10%.
- adventured 11y ago
  I think you'd be surprised. Per tax data from 1979-2005, out of the top professions in the 1%, computer/math/technical/engineering (non-finance) are the #5 group by population, representing 5% to 6% of the total (lawyers are #4 at around 8%). It's fair to say there are likely in fact lots of software engineers in the top 1%. There are also likely to be far more software engineers in a summed five to ten year measurement, than in any given year. The top 1% has a fairly high turn-over rate, in which a large percentage of the top 1% do not stay in that category year after year after year. Good software engineers have far more stable earning power over time than many of the people that make up the high earners (CEOs that get one-off bonus pay or options; sales workers with a big year, such as in real-estate; one-off dividends from owning part of a business; gains from a business sale). If you measured a high earning software engineer across five years, they'd come out a lot higher than any given year would otherwise indicate.
  - tdeck 11y ago
    My point was to refute the myth that "we, software engineers (assuming you're one), are in the 1%" which is patently untrue as a generalization. Five percent of the top 1% of earners in the US is a very small number of people compared to the number of software engineers in the country. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics[1], an income of $149,000 would put you in the top 10% of the software engineering profession. The medium annual wage for software engineers at all levels is around $100k. That's definitely better than many professions, but it doesn't even begin to approach the level of inequality we're talking about when we talk about the 1%. [1]: http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/software-developers.htm#tab-5 http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/s... EDIT: This doesn't even take into account the fact that other related titles like Computer Programmer (which, despite being a less fashionable job description of late, is often the same as what a "software engineer" would be doing) have significantly lower medians and are broken out separately.

bobby_9x 11y ago

"We all spend most of our time at work -- yet, somehow, we seem to give up every right as a human being when we become employees." Workers in the IT industry probably have the cushiest jobs in the world. You make way above minimum wage, you aren't risking your life, and your job can be done from the comfort of a heated or cooled office environment. I'm not sure what rights you think you are giving away as an employee. Employee/Employer relationships are usually legally bound by a contract. You are free to change the contract or question it before you work there. If you choose not to do this or don't want to take the time and effort into finding another job, it's no fault but your own. I think what's missing is education. Most people are so complacent, they don't want to read anything they sign and then act surprised when it contains something undesirable. I've crossed out and questioned plenty of employee contracts. Most businesses will work with you on this. I also don't know what more laws you want. As a business, you have to be so careful as to not step on someone's toes or offend them or you will find yourself in a lawsuit. Employees have nearly all the power in today's society (especially with hashtag warriors starting digital riots against companies that do any little thing they don't like), and somehow you think you need more? It just doesn't make any sense to me beyond pure greed and entitlement. "After all, we live in a time where incredible wealth is being created (it just seems to be hoarded by the 1%)" Worldwide, you are in the top 1% if you are making more than ~$30,000/year. I know the current narrative is to punish the 1% for 'hoarding' money and somehow screwing you out of your earnings, but it's just not happening.

MrTonyD 11y ago
"IT industry probably have the cushiest jobs" This isn't selfishly just about me, this is about what makes sense for our society. "Employee/Employer relationships are usually legally bound by a contract" There is a long history of contract terms being set by the more powerful party - and it is almost always workers who need the job and have less power. "it's no fault but your own" This completely ignores that opportunities are defined by our society - and the US has very low economic mobility. "what's missing is education" For over a decade education has not provided an improved salary in spite of much improved GDP. The perception of better salary has been shown to be lowered salary for the rest of society (excluding the 1% of course.) "what more laws you want" We could start by emulating other countries. Denmark workers join Unions which are funded through government. Flexcurity offsets "at will employment" with a great social safety net and free education. Corporatism creates "interest groups" which can be involved with decision-making for employers and industries. Some countries require employees on the board. Some countries only purchase from companies with transparent finances (no offshores). And these are just some techniques proven to work, there are many others which may be a good idea.

pc86 11y ago

I don't want to get too far into pedantic nonsense, but most of your time is not spent at work unless you are working far too much. Even at a full 40 hour work week, that's only 1/3 of your day for a part of the week. Even if you get 9 hours of sleep every night, it's still well under half your waking hours. For most people, especially us privileged white collar technology workers, the ability exists to show up at work, punch a clock and get something done, then go home and do whatever we want.

MrTonyD 11y ago
If you have a life and job like that, you should definitely hold on to it. It certainly doesn't sound like the past 15 years I've spent in Silicon Valley. With commute and flights and extra hours and company events, I'm confident that work is the biggest component of my life.