7 ms·

I'm relatively convinced that tuition fees don't promote inequality, based on stats I've seen over the last 10 years or so. Also, as a student, some of the rich

I'm relatively convinced that tuition fees don't promote inequality, based on stats I've seen over the last 10 years or so. Also, as a student, some of the richest people I knew didn't pay tuition fees due to creative accounting of their parents' personal finances. That said, £27,000 for a bachelor's degree represents terrible value for money in most cases. The UK's old targets of getting everyone into higher education have had a terribly negative effect on universities; they now chase student numbers and have a 'grow or die' mindset. The improvement of apprentice systems over the last few years is a step in the right direction, but I fear the damage has been done. Students don't want a challenging experience for £27k, they want the piece of paper they've paid for. For best value for money, I personally would rather take out a student loan without attending an institution and undertake self-guided learning at a slightly later age.

Pitarou 11y ago
I totally agree with you about Britain's obsession with academic qualifications at the expense of practical apprenticeships.
- realusername 11y ago
  While I agree with you (French guy living there now), It's even worse on the other side of the Channel.
  - lucaspiller 11y ago
    Also take a look at Spain, where higher education is basically free (compared to the UK). In a lot of cases, jobs that don't need a degree are requiring candidates to have them, before they are even considered for the position. I like how things work in Eastern Europe, where education isn't expensive but you need to actually work hard and be good (and get kicked out if you aren't) to get a degree.
    - realusername 11y ago
      I don't really know for Spain, but the price of education is not always the whole picture. In France it's mostly free (or really close to free) but the culture regarding degrees is vastly different compared to the UK. For engineering for example, you have an official definition of engineer and if you don't have the official engineering degree, you will never be considered an engineer, whatever you do (even 10 years after graduation).
      - screwt 11y ago
        > if you don't have the official engineering degree, you will never be considered an engineer The same is true in the UK - apart from the fact that we overload the term 'engineer' to mean both 'someone who fixes things' and 'someone with a particular professional qualification (similar to a doctor or lawyer)'. Becoming a Chartered Engineer requires a relevant masters degree, some years of professional experience and then qualifying exams - which is similar to other professions such as medicine or law. And these professional qualifications exist for a reason - e.g. someone has to sign off on a new bridge project and say that it will be safe. I don't want that person to be someone who reckons they know what they're doing just because they've done it for 10 years. NB: There are good reasons why software is (and should, IMO) be considered differently to a field such as structural engineering. And indeed, very few software engineers bother trying to achieve chartership.
    - spdionis 11y ago
      > and get kicked out if you aren't Or pay...
im2w1l 11y ago
I'd pay 27k for a piece of paper that say people have to listen to my rants because I am edumacated.
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
The increase in faux apprentices in the last few years is down to Mc Job employers(coffe shops and supermarkets) gaming the system and using apprentices as cheap unskilled labor. Hell they haven't manged to increase the number of trade apprentices chipy sparkies etc
- dazc 11y ago
  > Hell they haven't manged to increase the number of trade apprentices chipy sparkies etc I think the problem here is that small firms and one man bands, who used to be the backbone of the apprenticeship system, are no longer willing to take the risk of investing in someone only to see them get snapped up by a bigger firm once they have served their time? There needs to be some kind of system in place that either prevents this happening or that compensates the firm who made the initial investment.
- jonathanagough 11y ago
  It's even happening in our industry. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/bright-future-software-job-losses-10806331 http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchest...
spacecowboy_lon 11y ago
But you need one to get a job that when I left school required 4 or 5 O levels at 16 to get now require a BSc

Pitarou 11y ago

I totally agree with you about Britain's obsession with academic qualifications at the expense of practical apprenticeships.

realusername 11y ago
While I agree with you (French guy living there now), It's even worse on the other side of the Channel.
- lucaspiller 11y ago
  Also take a look at Spain, where higher education is basically free (compared to the UK). In a lot of cases, jobs that don't need a degree are requiring candidates to have them, before they are even considered for the position. I like how things work in Eastern Europe, where education isn't expensive but you need to actually work hard and be good (and get kicked out if you aren't) to get a degree.
  - realusername 11y ago
    I don't really know for Spain, but the price of education is not always the whole picture. In France it's mostly free (or really close to free) but the culture regarding degrees is vastly different compared to the UK. For engineering for example, you have an official definition of engineer and if you don't have the official engineering degree, you will never be considered an engineer, whatever you do (even 10 years after graduation).
    - screwt 11y ago
      > if you don't have the official engineering degree, you will never be considered an engineer The same is true in the UK - apart from the fact that we overload the term 'engineer' to mean both 'someone who fixes things' and 'someone with a particular professional qualification (similar to a doctor or lawyer)'. Becoming a Chartered Engineer requires a relevant masters degree, some years of professional experience and then qualifying exams - which is similar to other professions such as medicine or law. And these professional qualifications exist for a reason - e.g. someone has to sign off on a new bridge project and say that it will be safe. I don't want that person to be someone who reckons they know what they're doing just because they've done it for 10 years. NB: There are good reasons why software is (and should, IMO) be considered differently to a field such as structural engineering. And indeed, very few software engineers bother trying to achieve chartership.
  - spdionis 11y ago
    > and get kicked out if you aren't Or pay...

im2w1l 11y ago

I'd pay 27k for a piece of paper that say people have to listen to my rants because I am edumacated.

spacecowboy_lon 11y ago

The increase in faux apprentices in the last few years is down to Mc Job employers(coffe shops and supermarkets) gaming the system and using apprentices as cheap unskilled labor. Hell they haven't manged to increase the number of trade apprentices chipy sparkies etc

dazc 11y ago
> Hell they haven't manged to increase the number of trade apprentices chipy sparkies etc I think the problem here is that small firms and one man bands, who used to be the backbone of the apprenticeship system, are no longer willing to take the risk of investing in someone only to see them get snapped up by a bigger firm once they have served their time? There needs to be some kind of system in place that either prevents this happening or that compensates the firm who made the initial investment.
jonathanagough 11y ago
It's even happening in our industry. http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/bright-future-software-job-losses-10806331 http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchest...

spacecowboy_lon 11y ago

But you need one to get a job that when I left school required 4 or 5 O levels at 16 to get now require a BSc