4 ms·

Yes, I am already paying _a lot_, and I don't want to pay more.

caseysoftware 11y ago
I haven't looked into the details of this referendum but the way it's normally pitched is that this will replace all the other welfare.. in that those old systems will go away. Does the current proposal add without removing?
- mac01021 11y ago
  Even if it doesn't, it must add much more than it removes.
- andreasklinger 11y ago
  depends how costly the (currently) needed bureaucracy around it is
- caseysoftware 11y ago
  Re: bureaucracy If it was truly universal - no exceptions, no means-testing, etc - then the "bureaucracy" around this one is negligible. While I'm intrigued by a Basic Income approach, I don't think the bureaucracies would be willing to give up the power that they have to shape and influence people and society as a whole. It is exceptionally rare in human history that a government has given up power. I think that is what will kill most of these Basic Income proposals, not even considering the math of taxes.
tw04 11y ago
To be perfectly blunt: too bad. At the rate automation is occurring, either a basic wage becomes a thing, or society is going to collapse. Our populations cannot shrink enough to make up the gap between jobs taken by automation and new jobs created in other market segments. IT will be the next industry to get hit, and it's going to get hit HARD.
- LesZedCB 11y ago
  Probably capitalism will collapse (hopefully). Society is strong and resilient, and will likely be just fine. The real question is whether there will be a way to issue in the next iteration of societal order, or if it will regress when the capitalist empires of the world are destroyed.
  - ethbro 11y ago
    If capitalism collapses, then we're going to have to figure out a new way to incentivize production, transport, and distribution of food real quick.
    - LesZedCB 11y ago
      I think many people naturally see ways that society can be improved and are wiling to work on them. It's hard to make this point without going into all aspects of socialist thought. However, in basic, the reason most people produce now is to have enough to buy food and housing. The incentive for people to do above and beyond is to get wealthy for a big payout of some sort. However, while that does incentivize entrepreneurship, I think it's hard to argue that most of the ideas that come out of those efforts are socially beneficial. I would argue it would actually require relatively little work in order to provide a high quality of basic necessities to all people (food, housing, healthcare), which would allow people to spend more time focusing on building out things that would be beneficial for society.
- jld89 11y ago
  Just curious, how will the IT industry will be the next to get hit and what makes you say it will get hit "HARD"?
  - tw04 11y ago
    It's already happening. All those "server and tape monkeys" that were getting middle class salaries at large corporations are finding themselves downsized as companies move to more XaaS platforms for their mission critical apps, and the rise of AWS/Azure. It's the tip of the iceberg at this point (in my opinion). Not to mention, as people move to AWS, what happens to all of the sales reps, sales engineers, implementation engineers, support staff, etc. at all of the major hardware manufacturers? Those jobs just go away...

I haven't looked into the details of this referendum but the way it's normally pitched is that this will replace all the other welfare.. in that those old systems will go away. Does the current proposal add without removing?

mac01021 11y ago
Even if it doesn't, it must add much more than it removes.
andreasklinger 11y ago
depends how costly the (currently) needed bureaucracy around it is
caseysoftware 11y ago
Re: bureaucracy If it was truly universal - no exceptions, no means-testing, etc - then the "bureaucracy" around this one is negligible. While I'm intrigued by a Basic Income approach, I don't think the bureaucracies would be willing to give up the power that they have to shape and influence people and society as a whole. It is exceptionally rare in human history that a government has given up power. I think that is what will kill most of these Basic Income proposals, not even considering the math of taxes.

tw04 11y ago

To be perfectly blunt: too bad. At the rate automation is occurring, either a basic wage becomes a thing, or society is going to collapse. Our populations cannot shrink enough to make up the gap between jobs taken by automation and new jobs created in other market segments. IT will be the next industry to get hit, and it's going to get hit HARD.

LesZedCB 11y ago
Probably capitalism will collapse (hopefully). Society is strong and resilient, and will likely be just fine. The real question is whether there will be a way to issue in the next iteration of societal order, or if it will regress when the capitalist empires of the world are destroyed.
- ethbro 11y ago
  If capitalism collapses, then we're going to have to figure out a new way to incentivize production, transport, and distribution of food real quick.
  - LesZedCB 11y ago
    I think many people naturally see ways that society can be improved and are wiling to work on them. It's hard to make this point without going into all aspects of socialist thought. However, in basic, the reason most people produce now is to have enough to buy food and housing. The incentive for people to do above and beyond is to get wealthy for a big payout of some sort. However, while that does incentivize entrepreneurship, I think it's hard to argue that most of the ideas that come out of those efforts are socially beneficial. I would argue it would actually require relatively little work in order to provide a high quality of basic necessities to all people (food, housing, healthcare), which would allow people to spend more time focusing on building out things that would be beneficial for society.
jld89 11y ago
Just curious, how will the IT industry will be the next to get hit and what makes you say it will get hit "HARD"?
- tw04 11y ago
  It's already happening. All those "server and tape monkeys" that were getting middle class salaries at large corporations are finding themselves downsized as companies move to more XaaS platforms for their mission critical apps, and the rise of AWS/Azure. It's the tip of the iceberg at this point (in my opinion). Not to mention, as people move to AWS, what happens to all of the sales reps, sales engineers, implementation engineers, support staff, etc. at all of the major hardware manufacturers? Those jobs just go away...