7 ms·

> You basically have to believe that all US foreign activity or all secrecy is inherently bad to say that that the Manning dump moved us forward as a democracy.

by jbapple 11y ago

> You basically have to believe that all US foreign activity or all secrecy is inherently bad to say that that the Manning dump moved us forward as a democracy. I think this hyperbole is no more helpful to the conversation than your original one ("patently childish").

BWStearns 11y ago
Name an illegal US activity that was unmasked via the Manning dump.
- nitrogen 11y ago
  There's more to right and wrong than strict deontology. What's legal or illegal is only a very fuzzy approximation of what's ethical or moral. So demands like "name an illegal activity" are missing the deeper moral/ethical point, regardless of whether there are illegal activities in the dumps (I'd also say it's bad form to make such a demand in the middle of an Internet thread where it's highly unlikely that your fellow commenters have the time to review thousands of diplomatic messages/documents/videos/whatever).
  - BWStearns 11y ago
    I was addressing a policy and legal question of whistleblower policies. A standard of "exposes an illegal program" seemed to have been the standard that was effectively being used (I would also suggest it seems a reasonable standard). Since I was dealing with that I limited myself to the legal and the policy, which I guess I hinted at and I hoped was obvious but I didn't explicitly state. Wrt the bad form, the Manning dumps have been out for longer and are much more public than the Snowden leaks; they've been combed pretty damn thoroughly. Suggesting that my comment requires original research of the documents is disingenuous.
    - nitrogen 11y ago
      I was addressing a policy and legal question of whistleblower policies. Talking about legal policies without considering the greater moral framework in which they exist is disingenuous; it implies there is nothing important other than policies. Suggesting that my comment requires original research of the documents is disingenuous. At the least it requires research of the reporting on the Manning dumps. An any case, I maintain that a one-line demand for something with borderline relevance that may require extensive research is in bad form. And I don't know how I forgot, but the Manning data included the footage used for the Collateral Murder video, which "may depict a war crime" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike#Legality_of_the_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrik...). So there's your illegal activity.
      - BWStearns 11y ago
        >> Talking about legal policies without considering the greater moral framework in which they exist is disingenuous And torpedoing productive policy discussion with increasingly vague discussion is also so. What help is hand waving about the unfortunately approximate relationship between policy and ethics? Your comment suggests a question about the relationship (without asking one) as if it were a wise counterpoint. OK, now what? It's not as if any reader of that comment was prior unaware of the inexact correspondence between law and morality. Am I required to solve that relationship in the general case before proceeding with policy? How about only in the problem space of agreements (such as the classified NDA)? Or do I also need to resolve that relationship in all cases concerning the relationship between individuals and society and the state? Your argument approaches that irritating stoner kid in sophomore year who could get to "But in the end can we even say anything is wrong?" from anywhere. If there is specific bit of ethics or morals that should be addressed then bring it up, otherwise is it just a general call for remembering to think ethically? If so, then thanks I guess? The video was investigated openly and was ruled an accident. Like it or hate it it's been determined not a war crime, though it has become something of a form of snuff film for people who really want to find US warcrimes.
        nitrogen 11y ago
        > And torpedoing productive policy discussion with increasingly vague discussion is also so. What help is hand waving about the unfortunately approximate relationship between policy and ethics? Two points: 1. You're not the only person who can decide the scope of a conversation on an Internet forum. 2. Accusations of "torpedoing" and "hand waving" are unfounded. Here's the thread so far, in which you seem to be the one waving hands: > > > > [BWStearns] You basically have to believe that all US foreign activity or all secrecy is inherently bad to say that that the Manning dump moved us forward as a democracy. > > > [jbapple] I think this hyperbole is no more helpful to the conversation than your original one ("patently childish"). > > [BWStearns] Name an illegal US activity that was unmasked via the Manning dump. > [nitrogen] There's more to right and wrong than strict deontology. What's legal or illegal is only a very fuzzy approximation of what's ethical or moral. So demands like "name an illegal activity" are missing the deeper moral/ethical point, regardless of whether there are illegal activities in the dumps... I think it's pretty clear that I was addressing this comment thread. To put it beyond all possible misinterpretation, I'm saying that moving forward as a democracy is about more than what's strictly legal or illegal. The only question that should matter when evaluating a whistleblower is this: does the information serve the public interest? I'd argue that bar should be extremely low, primarily for the reason that the people of the US cannot make informed decisions without being informed. Also relevant is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11004830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11004830 > Your argument approaches that irritating stoner kid in sophomore year who could get to "But in the end can we even say anything is wrong?" from anywhere. Your argument approaches that irritating paternalizing of government rhetoric in which "sober" analysis can only come to one conclusion, that the "current best solution to the problem is where we are currently". I've been discussing in good faith, at worst omitting implied context to save space and time, and you're resorting here to what comes across as thinly veiled ad hominem. There is plenty of interesting and productive conversation to be had about secrecy and whistleblowers, but this thread has become too long, too narrow, and bordering on too personal for me to desire to continue here.
- jbapple 11y ago
  > Name an illegal US activity that was unmasked via the Manning dump. That was not the point of my post. I did not say or imply that that illegal activities were unmasked by the Manning dump. I am saying that your prediction that people who think the Manning dump moved democracy forward necessarily believe that basically all secrecy is bad is unhelpful to a conversation about what the whistleblowing laws should be. For instance, some people may think that US foreign policy should all be public while domestic criminal investigations can be private. Some people might believe that the Manning dump was illegal but that some illegal activities (like lunch-counter sit-ins or suffragettes chaining themselves to the White House fence) move democracy forward.
  - BWStearns 11y ago
    I fully misunderstood your point, very fair. I shouldn't have made such a broad stroke. I hadn't considered the other configurations of public/secret. I would like to say however that I am on the side that believes that some illegal acts move democracy forward, I just don't believe that the Manning dump did that, primarily on the basis of not having revealed illegal behavior. As your other post notes it did add a bit to the torture debate (I had previously not known this), but I personally think that the added info wasn't worth the damage to DoS operations, but drawing that line is clearly a fuzzy process.
    - jbapple 11y ago
      > I would like to say however that I am on the side that believes that some illegal acts move democracy forward, I just don't believe that the Manning dump did that, primarily on the basis of not having revealed illegal behavior. As your other post notes it did add a bit to the torture debate (I had previously not known this), but I personally think that the added info wasn't worth the damage to DoS operations, but drawing that line is clearly a fuzzy process. If you didn't know about the Gitmo thing, which was a very prominent part of the leak that took me literally 10 minutes to discover today by using Wikipedia, what else might you be missing in your understanding of the leak? How can you conclude that it didn't "move democracy forward" without having a strong understanding of its contents? I know I won't be able to draw a conclusion about the helpfulness of the leak to democracy without much, much more study.
- jbapple 11y ago
  > Name an illegal US activity that was unmasked via the Manning dump. I replied separately that this was not the point of my post, but I will reply here in a separate reply (so as no to conflate things) about illegal activities exposed by Manning. It looks to me that the Manning dump includes more details about the US interrogation methods at Guantanamo than were previously publicly revealed, and I think there is a strong argument that some of the interrogation methods used at Gitmo were illegal under existing US laws against torture.
  - BWStearns 11y ago
    Alright. I guess it's not really an original revelation but a followup of some value. I'll meet you halfway and call it arguable.
- tw04 11y ago
  Sure, here's 10: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/04/bradley_manning_trial_10_revelations_from_wikileaks_documents_on_iraq_afghanistan.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/04/bradley_m...
- ionised 11y ago
  War crimes.

by jbapple 11y ago

BWStearns 11y ago

Name an illegal US activity that was unmasked via the Manning dump.

nitrogen 11y ago
There's more to right and wrong than strict deontology. What's legal or illegal is only a very fuzzy approximation of what's ethical or moral. So demands like "name an illegal activity" are missing the deeper moral/ethical point, regardless of whether there are illegal activities in the dumps (I'd also say it's bad form to make such a demand in the middle of an Internet thread where it's highly unlikely that your fellow commenters have the time to review thousands of diplomatic messages/documents/videos/whatever).
- BWStearns 11y ago
  I was addressing a policy and legal question of whistleblower policies. A standard of "exposes an illegal program" seemed to have been the standard that was effectively being used (I would also suggest it seems a reasonable standard). Since I was dealing with that I limited myself to the legal and the policy, which I guess I hinted at and I hoped was obvious but I didn't explicitly state. Wrt the bad form, the Manning dumps have been out for longer and are much more public than the Snowden leaks; they've been combed pretty damn thoroughly. Suggesting that my comment requires original research of the documents is disingenuous.
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    I was addressing a policy and legal question of whistleblower policies. Talking about legal policies without considering the greater moral framework in which they exist is disingenuous; it implies there is nothing important other than policies. Suggesting that my comment requires original research of the documents is disingenuous. At the least it requires research of the reporting on the Manning dumps. An any case, I maintain that a one-line demand for something with borderline relevance that may require extensive research is in bad form. And I don't know how I forgot, but the Manning data included the footage used for the Collateral Murder video, which "may depict a war crime" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike#Legality_of_the_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrik...). So there's your illegal activity.
    - BWStearns 11y ago
      >> Talking about legal policies without considering the greater moral framework in which they exist is disingenuous And torpedoing productive policy discussion with increasingly vague discussion is also so. What help is hand waving about the unfortunately approximate relationship between policy and ethics? Your comment suggests a question about the relationship (without asking one) as if it were a wise counterpoint. OK, now what? It's not as if any reader of that comment was prior unaware of the inexact correspondence between law and morality. Am I required to solve that relationship in the general case before proceeding with policy? How about only in the problem space of agreements (such as the classified NDA)? Or do I also need to resolve that relationship in all cases concerning the relationship between individuals and society and the state? Your argument approaches that irritating stoner kid in sophomore year who could get to "But in the end can we even say anything is wrong?" from anywhere. If there is specific bit of ethics or morals that should be addressed then bring it up, otherwise is it just a general call for remembering to think ethically? If so, then thanks I guess? The video was investigated openly and was ruled an accident. Like it or hate it it's been determined not a war crime, though it has become something of a form of snuff film for people who really want to find US warcrimes.
      - nitrogen 11y ago
        > And torpedoing productive policy discussion with increasingly vague discussion is also so. What help is hand waving about the unfortunately approximate relationship between policy and ethics? Two points: 1. You're not the only person who can decide the scope of a conversation on an Internet forum. 2. Accusations of "torpedoing" and "hand waving" are unfounded. Here's the thread so far, in which you seem to be the one waving hands: > > > > [BWStearns] You basically have to believe that all US foreign activity or all secrecy is inherently bad to say that that the Manning dump moved us forward as a democracy. > > > [jbapple] I think this hyperbole is no more helpful to the conversation than your original one ("patently childish"). > > [BWStearns] Name an illegal US activity that was unmasked via the Manning dump. > [nitrogen] There's more to right and wrong than strict deontology. What's legal or illegal is only a very fuzzy approximation of what's ethical or moral. So demands like "name an illegal activity" are missing the deeper moral/ethical point, regardless of whether there are illegal activities in the dumps... I think it's pretty clear that I was addressing this comment thread. To put it beyond all possible misinterpretation, I'm saying that moving forward as a democracy is about more than what's strictly legal or illegal. The only question that should matter when evaluating a whistleblower is this: does the information serve the public interest? I'd argue that bar should be extremely low, primarily for the reason that the people of the US cannot make informed decisions without being informed. Also relevant is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11004830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11004830 > Your argument approaches that irritating stoner kid in sophomore year who could get to "But in the end can we even say anything is wrong?" from anywhere. Your argument approaches that irritating paternalizing of government rhetoric in which "sober" analysis can only come to one conclusion, that the "current best solution to the problem is where we are currently". I've been discussing in good faith, at worst omitting implied context to save space and time, and you're resorting here to what comes across as thinly veiled ad hominem. There is plenty of interesting and productive conversation to be had about secrecy and whistleblowers, but this thread has become too long, too narrow, and bordering on too personal for me to desire to continue here.
jbapple 11y ago
> Name an illegal US activity that was unmasked via the Manning dump. That was not the point of my post. I did not say or imply that that illegal activities were unmasked by the Manning dump. I am saying that your prediction that people who think the Manning dump moved democracy forward necessarily believe that basically all secrecy is bad is unhelpful to a conversation about what the whistleblowing laws should be. For instance, some people may think that US foreign policy should all be public while domestic criminal investigations can be private. Some people might believe that the Manning dump was illegal but that some illegal activities (like lunch-counter sit-ins or suffragettes chaining themselves to the White House fence) move democracy forward.
- BWStearns 11y ago
  I fully misunderstood your point, very fair. I shouldn't have made such a broad stroke. I hadn't considered the other configurations of public/secret. I would like to say however that I am on the side that believes that some illegal acts move democracy forward, I just don't believe that the Manning dump did that, primarily on the basis of not having revealed illegal behavior. As your other post notes it did add a bit to the torture debate (I had previously not known this), but I personally think that the added info wasn't worth the damage to DoS operations, but drawing that line is clearly a fuzzy process.
  - jbapple 11y ago
    > I would like to say however that I am on the side that believes that some illegal acts move democracy forward, I just don't believe that the Manning dump did that, primarily on the basis of not having revealed illegal behavior. As your other post notes it did add a bit to the torture debate (I had previously not known this), but I personally think that the added info wasn't worth the damage to DoS operations, but drawing that line is clearly a fuzzy process. If you didn't know about the Gitmo thing, which was a very prominent part of the leak that took me literally 10 minutes to discover today by using Wikipedia, what else might you be missing in your understanding of the leak? How can you conclude that it didn't "move democracy forward" without having a strong understanding of its contents? I know I won't be able to draw a conclusion about the helpfulness of the leak to democracy without much, much more study.
jbapple 11y ago
> Name an illegal US activity that was unmasked via the Manning dump. I replied separately that this was not the point of my post, but I will reply here in a separate reply (so as no to conflate things) about illegal activities exposed by Manning. It looks to me that the Manning dump includes more details about the US interrogation methods at Guantanamo than were previously publicly revealed, and I think there is a strong argument that some of the interrogation methods used at Gitmo were illegal under existing US laws against torture.
- BWStearns 11y ago
  Alright. I guess it's not really an original revelation but a followup of some value. I'll meet you halfway and call it arguable.
tw04 11y ago
Sure, here's 10: http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/04/bradley_manning_trial_10_revelations_from_wikileaks_documents_on_iraq_afghanistan.html http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/06/04/bradley_m...
ionised 11y ago
War crimes.