10 ms·

And west is trying to return the favor a few centuries later by trying to introduce basic human rights and/or democracy in China but so far, with not much succe

by dba7dba 11y ago

And west is trying to return the favor a few centuries later by trying to introduce basic human rights and/or democracy in China but so far, with not much success...

tluyben2 11y ago
Is that true though? Sure it happens but it also still happens in the US and other democratic countries. Maybe less but things progressed a lot. You keep reading things about oppression etc but Chinese colleagues I talk to in Shanghai and surrounding or Bejing and surrounding notice nothing of the sort. Maybe you have to actively oppose the gov to get kicked down? It is not there yet but not much success is too negative imho. Looking at Apple and other western brands here I think it even went too far. Mao would not be happy.
- PavlovsCat 11y ago
  > Maybe you have to actively oppose the gov to get kicked down? You mean kind like you're free to go wherever you want in prison, as long as you don't try to walk out of the door of your cell? :P Here's a really sobering thought though: > You can have a lot of political 'change' in the United States, but will it really change that much? Will it change the amount of money in someone’s bank account? Will it change contracts? Will it void contracts that already exist? And contracts on contracts? And contracts on contracts on contracts? Not really. > So I say that free speech in many Western places is free not as a result of liberal circumstances but rather as a result of such intense fiscalization that it doesn’t matter what you say. The dominant elite doesn’t have to be scared of what people think, because a change in political view is not going to change whether they own their company or not; it is not going to change whether they own a piece of land or not. But China is still a political society, although it is rapidly heading toward a fiscalized society. And other societies, like Egypt, are still heavily politicized. Their rulers really do need to be concerned about what people think, so they expend proportionate efforts on controlling freedom of speech. -- Julian Assange
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    A bit ironic to quote Julian Assange in this case considering his current predicament. Free speech exists in the west only for those who don't say anything important. As soon as you say something important you end up in Julian's shoes.
- TheLogothete 11y ago
  There was a front page story here, on HN, about a guy that made some component to make VPNs work in China, stopping all work because the secret police threatened his life.
  - chrischen 11y ago
    VPNs do work in China, and it is a sovereign nation's right to enact and enforce laws it believes are just and necessary. My sister's home town in Michigan says it's illegal to spit on the ground. America threatens jail time for possessing weed!
    - TheLogothete 11y ago
      I don't think debating axiology with strangers on the internet is worth it.
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    I raise you one Edward Snowden.
    - ggreer 11y ago
      I don't see how that's remotely comparable. In the US, state officials simply don't threaten your life for writing software. Despite leaking state secrets, Snowden's life was never threatened by US officials. Yes, he's a whistleblower, but his actions are far more serious than developing software. Even then, US officials talk of imprisonment at worst.
      - marshray 11y ago
        > Snowden's life was never threatened by US officials http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/11/ron-paul-us-government-may-try-to-kill-whistleblower.html http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/11/ron-paul-us-gover... http://www.businessinsider.com/us-spies-talk-about-killing-snowden-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/us-spies-talk-about-killing-s... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/edward-snowden-kill-list-joke-us-intelligence-chiefs http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/edward-snowden-...
1stop 11y ago
sigh This trope is a bit a over used. When you say "The West" you mean "The US" right? If you say "China's record on human rights" I say: "Guantanamo, NSA, Wikileaks...". If you say "Democracy in China" I say "China has a similar percentage of voters as the US" (That's right, lots of people are in the party!). And "George W Bush didn't actually win against Al Gore (Do we all remember the florida recount... or lack there of)". There is too much hypocrisy in the China/US political debate. They are both Super powers, they do some things differently, they do some things the same, neither of them are morally superior.
- vijayr 11y ago
  Also solitary confinement, too much power to the police etc. Topics like this are not black and white. It is just a waste of time (unless one is a politician making noises to get elected) talking about these topics without solid proof and even then it should be case by case basis, instead of broad generalizations.
- walterbell 11y ago
  Do you have more context on this story, http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/mag_article/chinas_latest_crackdown_on_lawyers_is_unprecedented_human_rights_monitors/ http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/mag_article/chinas_latest_c... "... Wang and her husband, human rights attorney Bao Longjun, were detained July 9 and accused of inciting subversion of state power. In early January, they were formally arrested, their lawyer told the New York Times on Jan. 13. The pair have been incommunicado since July, when they began languishing under “residential surveillance”—a status sometimes interpreted to be the equivalent of house arrest but that is actually akin to a “black jail.” There, detainees are held in solitary confinement and subjected to extreme interrogation, forced confessions and even torture. Family members, friends and colleagues have been denied access or even knowledge of their whereabouts. In April 2015, three months before she disappeared, human rights lawyer Wang protested against expropriations of farmland and properties in Suzhou, northwest of Shanghai. The arrests of Wang and Bao are just the tip of the iceberg. By mid-November, more than 300 people had been swept up in what human rights monitors describe as an unprecedented crackdown on Chinese lawyers. Those detained or questioned include not only some of the most active rights lawyers but also their support staff, associates and even family members. At least three have seen their children’s passports confiscated and their movements curtailed."
50CNT 11y ago
Kinda. The Chinese government has been trying to mix sitting on a powder keg and rapid economic growth. They do not want to become a second USSR by opening up all the floodgates at once. Also, considering how they got to their position, I don't think that any of them have preconceptions of a gentle fall if things go south. What seems to be the case is that they're shooting for slow incremental improvement, moving from less touchy areas to more touchy areas. They've gone from not talking about corruption to cracking down on it higher and higher up the ranks. It's a very slow sleigh of hand, with the distraction being economic growth, and various distinctly communist tasting programs (the current one should be 中国梦(Chinese Dream), if I recall correctly). But their fear doesn't seem unjustified. There are still spontaneous uprisings which are usually nipped in the bud before they can escalate by means of information and communication monitoring. That's what they care about. Expats in China using VPNs? They don't give one. Whilst I'm all for democracy, introducing it to China right now would work about as well as introducing it to the Middle East. Groups feeling under-represented would fraction off, there would likely be civil war, widespread devastation to one of the most populous countries of the world, and worst of all, whilst Iran getting nuclear weapons seems like a looming threat, China does have them. The sheer pandemonium would make Syria look like a backwater stand-off. I may be exaggerating, but then look at the bloodshed of the cultural revolution. I grew up in Germany, so it's not like I'm opposed or unfamiliar with the idea of democracy, it's an incredible system. But for China right now? Well meant, but not practical. It'd be a less bloody affair to turn the US into a monarchy (to make a comparison). In 20 years, maybe, though it might take longer. Thinking China can be fixed with a fair heaping of democracy and human rights ignores a lot of very significant details in a country that works contrary to a lot of accepted wisdom in the west. /rant PS: There's lots of interesting things going on here, playing churned lover with western ideals is literally the least interesting thing to talk about. The day before yesterday they announced changes to the Visa regimen, coming into effect in March. 72-hour visa free visit in 4 yangtze river cities, and some streamlining of visa/green card programs for tech people and entrepreneurs working in China. Maybe I should have chosen a less ironic user name, because this is starting to sound like a sales pitch.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Oh, I thought your user name meant the rapper :) The new visa regimes are interesting, but it hasn't seem to trickle down yet to us tech PhD people's. Really, China doesn't like foreigners, and they merely tolerate us, making us register at police stations after every trip, making us renew our visas yearly, not giving us access to the same services as natives.
rorykoehler 11y ago
Democracy? We don't even have a functioning one between us ourselves. Shameful attitude.
marshray 11y ago
I always remember this video, the 1st time I heard the US political establishment openly question its China trade policy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EVGOQVuU2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EVGOQVuU2Q

by dba7dba 11y ago

And west is trying to return the favor a few centuries later by trying to introduce basic human rights and/or democracy in China but so far, with not much success...

tluyben2 11y ago

Is that true though? Sure it happens but it also still happens in the US and other democratic countries. Maybe less but things progressed a lot. You keep reading things about oppression etc but Chinese colleagues I talk to in Shanghai and surrounding or Bejing and surrounding notice nothing of the sort. Maybe you have to actively oppose the gov to get kicked down? It is not there yet but not much success is too negative imho. Looking at Apple and other western brands here I think it even went too far. Mao would not be happy.

PavlovsCat 11y ago
> Maybe you have to actively oppose the gov to get kicked down? You mean kind like you're free to go wherever you want in prison, as long as you don't try to walk out of the door of your cell? :P Here's a really sobering thought though: > You can have a lot of political 'change' in the United States, but will it really change that much? Will it change the amount of money in someone’s bank account? Will it change contracts? Will it void contracts that already exist? And contracts on contracts? And contracts on contracts on contracts? Not really. > So I say that free speech in many Western places is free not as a result of liberal circumstances but rather as a result of such intense fiscalization that it doesn’t matter what you say. The dominant elite doesn’t have to be scared of what people think, because a change in political view is not going to change whether they own their company or not; it is not going to change whether they own a piece of land or not. But China is still a political society, although it is rapidly heading toward a fiscalized society. And other societies, like Egypt, are still heavily politicized. Their rulers really do need to be concerned about what people think, so they expend proportionate efforts on controlling freedom of speech. -- Julian Assange
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  A bit ironic to quote Julian Assange in this case considering his current predicament. Free speech exists in the west only for those who don't say anything important. As soon as you say something important you end up in Julian's shoes.
TheLogothete 11y ago
There was a front page story here, on HN, about a guy that made some component to make VPNs work in China, stopping all work because the secret police threatened his life.
- chrischen 11y ago
  VPNs do work in China, and it is a sovereign nation's right to enact and enforce laws it believes are just and necessary. My sister's home town in Michigan says it's illegal to spit on the ground. America threatens jail time for possessing weed!
  - TheLogothete 11y ago
    I don't think debating axiology with strangers on the internet is worth it.
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  I raise you one Edward Snowden.
  - ggreer 11y ago
    I don't see how that's remotely comparable. In the US, state officials simply don't threaten your life for writing software. Despite leaking state secrets, Snowden's life was never threatened by US officials. Yes, he's a whistleblower, but his actions are far more serious than developing software. Even then, US officials talk of imprisonment at worst.
    - marshray 11y ago
      > Snowden's life was never threatened by US officials http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/11/ron-paul-us-government-may-try-to-kill-whistleblower.html http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/11/ron-paul-us-gover... http://www.businessinsider.com/us-spies-talk-about-killing-snowden-2014-1 http://www.businessinsider.com/us-spies-talk-about-killing-s... http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/edward-snowden-kill-list-joke-us-intelligence-chiefs http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/edward-snowden-...

1stop 11y ago

sigh This trope is a bit a over used. When you say "The West" you mean "The US" right? If you say "China's record on human rights" I say: "Guantanamo, NSA, Wikileaks...". If you say "Democracy in China" I say "China has a similar percentage of voters as the US" (That's right, lots of people are in the party!). And "George W Bush didn't actually win against Al Gore (Do we all remember the florida recount... or lack there of)". There is too much hypocrisy in the China/US political debate. They are both Super powers, they do some things differently, they do some things the same, neither of them are morally superior.

vijayr 11y ago
Also solitary confinement, too much power to the police etc. Topics like this are not black and white. It is just a waste of time (unless one is a politician making noises to get elected) talking about these topics without solid proof and even then it should be case by case basis, instead of broad generalizations.
walterbell 11y ago
Do you have more context on this story, http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/mag_article/chinas_latest_crackdown_on_lawyers_is_unprecedented_human_rights_monitors/ http://www.abajournal.com/mobile/mag_article/chinas_latest_c... "... Wang and her husband, human rights attorney Bao Longjun, were detained July 9 and accused of inciting subversion of state power. In early January, they were formally arrested, their lawyer told the New York Times on Jan. 13. The pair have been incommunicado since July, when they began languishing under “residential surveillance”—a status sometimes interpreted to be the equivalent of house arrest but that is actually akin to a “black jail.” There, detainees are held in solitary confinement and subjected to extreme interrogation, forced confessions and even torture. Family members, friends and colleagues have been denied access or even knowledge of their whereabouts. In April 2015, three months before she disappeared, human rights lawyer Wang protested against expropriations of farmland and properties in Suzhou, northwest of Shanghai. The arrests of Wang and Bao are just the tip of the iceberg. By mid-November, more than 300 people had been swept up in what human rights monitors describe as an unprecedented crackdown on Chinese lawyers. Those detained or questioned include not only some of the most active rights lawyers but also their support staff, associates and even family members. At least three have seen their children’s passports confiscated and their movements curtailed."

50CNT 11y ago

Kinda. The Chinese government has been trying to mix sitting on a powder keg and rapid economic growth. They do not want to become a second USSR by opening up all the floodgates at once. Also, considering how they got to their position, I don't think that any of them have preconceptions of a gentle fall if things go south. What seems to be the case is that they're shooting for slow incremental improvement, moving from less touchy areas to more touchy areas. They've gone from not talking about corruption to cracking down on it higher and higher up the ranks. It's a very slow sleigh of hand, with the distraction being economic growth, and various distinctly communist tasting programs (the current one should be 中国梦(Chinese Dream), if I recall correctly). But their fear doesn't seem unjustified. There are still spontaneous uprisings which are usually nipped in the bud before they can escalate by means of information and communication monitoring. That's what they care about. Expats in China using VPNs? They don't give one. Whilst I'm all for democracy, introducing it to China right now would work about as well as introducing it to the Middle East. Groups feeling under-represented would fraction off, there would likely be civil war, widespread devastation to one of the most populous countries of the world, and worst of all, whilst Iran getting nuclear weapons seems like a looming threat, China does have them. The sheer pandemonium would make Syria look like a backwater stand-off. I may be exaggerating, but then look at the bloodshed of the cultural revolution. I grew up in Germany, so it's not like I'm opposed or unfamiliar with the idea of democracy, it's an incredible system. But for China right now? Well meant, but not practical. It'd be a less bloody affair to turn the US into a monarchy (to make a comparison). In 20 years, maybe, though it might take longer. Thinking China can be fixed with a fair heaping of democracy and human rights ignores a lot of very significant details in a country that works contrary to a lot of accepted wisdom in the west. /rant PS: There's lots of interesting things going on here, playing churned lover with western ideals is literally the least interesting thing to talk about. The day before yesterday they announced changes to the Visa regimen, coming into effect in March. 72-hour visa free visit in 4 yangtze river cities, and some streamlining of visa/green card programs for tech people and entrepreneurs working in China. Maybe I should have chosen a less ironic user name, because this is starting to sound like a sales pitch.

seanmcdirmid 11y ago
Oh, I thought your user name meant the rapper :) The new visa regimes are interesting, but it hasn't seem to trickle down yet to us tech PhD people's. Really, China doesn't like foreigners, and they merely tolerate us, making us register at police stations after every trip, making us renew our visas yearly, not giving us access to the same services as natives.

rorykoehler 11y ago

Democracy? We don't even have a functioning one between us ourselves. Shameful attitude.

marshray 11y ago

I always remember this video, the 1st time I heard the US political establishment openly question its China trade policy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EVGOQVuU2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EVGOQVuU2Q