7 ms·

I have to say America just seems like a dreadful mess.

sailfast 11y ago
It seems that way, but... it's not. I don't have any real data or concrete thoughts on why, but in general I much prefer some chaos and the potential for change to a whole bunch of stability bordering on stagnation even if it seems like a big hot mess. Don't believe the messy hype :P
vlunkr 11y ago
The thing about America is it's huge. I believe these stories, but they don't reflect the behavior of cops where I live.
sosborn 11y ago
If all you go by is media reports, then sure, it sounds awful. But let me tell you something about the media: in general they look for the stories that inspire outrage and that are extraordinary. They do not reflect the normal life.
rhino369 11y ago
Americas biggest problem in the inner cities. They are literally ghettos were gangs and violence run rampant. The schools are pure shit. The kids have no future. The cops crack down hard (half because they have to in order to maintain any semblance of peace, half because they become jaded). But that part of America is shockingly isolated from the rest of us. Chicago is a great example. There are blocks where on side of an intersection it's gang territory and the other is totally safe. There are huge swaths of Chicago that are rich, peaceful, and probably the best city living in America. There are also huge swaths of pure poverty and gang warfare. If you are born on the right side of the tracks, it's a great place. If you aren't, well, good luck.
- branchless 11y ago
  > If you are born on the right side of the tracks, it's a great place. If you aren't, well, good luck. And I'd regard that as a total failure. It's sad. It was the new land and here we are thanks to the lack of land value tax with the very rich and a large underclass with little social mobility.
- exstudent2 11y ago
  > Americas biggest problem in the inner cities. This is absolutely not true. Have you ever lived in an inner city? Yes some people are fighting with each other but if you act respectfully, you'll be left alone. The police aren't cracking down because they "have to". They're cracking down (e.g. stop and frisk) because they're power hungry and ignorant. As someone who's lived in all manner of socioeconomic areas of the US, I would say without hesitation that the biggest problem here is the cost of healthcare, education and housing. NOT any segment of the population.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    It's really not true that if you act respectfully in Englewood or North Lawndale that you'll be left alone.
    - exstudent2 11y ago
      It is true (as true as it can be anywhere). By all means keep making blanket generalizations though because it keeps neighborhoods like that cheap for people like me to live in. I've spent > decade living in "ghettos" and not once have had an incident with the locals. I have however been harassed by cops many times regardless of the neighborhood I'm in.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        I've been fucked with in high-crime neighborhoods in Chicago far more often than I've been fucked with by police (both have happened). I don't think it's particularly good advice to tell people that they're safe in bad neighborhoods as long as they're "respectful".
        exstudent2 11y ago
        My experience definitely does not match yours, poor people are just like everyone else and I actually find the communities in areas like that to be MUCH stronger if you take the time to get to know people.
Juz16 11y ago
The thing to keep in mind is that America isn't as homogeneous as a European country, it's as diverse as the entire European continent. Would you say that Denmark is a dreadful mess because of the crime rate in Serbia? Probably not.
- bilbo0s 11y ago
  To be fair to branchless... Chicago's crime rate is not all that high. It certainly would not make a list of the top 50 crime cities in the US. Or even the top 100. (http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/neighborhoods/crime-rates/top100dangerous/ http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/neighborhoods/crime-rates/t...) So, I'm thinking, branchless' thought process probably goes something like this... "If Chicago is this bad with crime and corruption... what must the rest of the US be like???" Having mentioned that, other people are correct as well to point out that not ALL places will have the same level of corruption. Many, many places have far more corruption and crime than Chicago. And many, many places have far less corruption and crime than Chicago. But if you are from Western Europe, the mean level of corruption here in the US may be discomfiting to you.
  - sbjustin 11y ago
    30th in murder rate though: http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/top-lists/highest-murder-rate-cities/ http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/top-lists/highest-murder-ra...
    - Pinckney 11y ago
      Murder rate is probably the only statistic that can be trusted. Police are under lots of pressure to make sure crime stats go down, and it's really easy to misclassify or ignore reports for things like armed robbery or rape. A body is harder to hide.
      - jrs235 11y ago
        And crimes committed by police probably won't show up either...
zepto 11y ago
Compared to where?

It seems that way, but... it's not. I don't have any real data or concrete thoughts on why, but in general I much prefer some chaos and the potential for change to a whole bunch of stability bordering on stagnation even if it seems like a big hot mess. Don't believe the messy hype :P

vlunkr 11y ago

The thing about America is it's huge. I believe these stories, but they don't reflect the behavior of cops where I live.

sosborn 11y ago

If all you go by is media reports, then sure, it sounds awful. But let me tell you something about the media: in general they look for the stories that inspire outrage and that are extraordinary. They do not reflect the normal life.

rhino369 11y ago

Americas biggest problem in the inner cities. They are literally ghettos were gangs and violence run rampant. The schools are pure shit. The kids have no future. The cops crack down hard (half because they have to in order to maintain any semblance of peace, half because they become jaded). But that part of America is shockingly isolated from the rest of us. Chicago is a great example. There are blocks where on side of an intersection it's gang territory and the other is totally safe. There are huge swaths of Chicago that are rich, peaceful, and probably the best city living in America. There are also huge swaths of pure poverty and gang warfare. If you are born on the right side of the tracks, it's a great place. If you aren't, well, good luck.

branchless 11y ago
> If you are born on the right side of the tracks, it's a great place. If you aren't, well, good luck. And I'd regard that as a total failure. It's sad. It was the new land and here we are thanks to the lack of land value tax with the very rich and a large underclass with little social mobility.
exstudent2 11y ago
> Americas biggest problem in the inner cities. This is absolutely not true. Have you ever lived in an inner city? Yes some people are fighting with each other but if you act respectfully, you'll be left alone. The police aren't cracking down because they "have to". They're cracking down (e.g. stop and frisk) because they're power hungry and ignorant. As someone who's lived in all manner of socioeconomic areas of the US, I would say without hesitation that the biggest problem here is the cost of healthcare, education and housing. NOT any segment of the population.
- tptacek 11y ago
  It's really not true that if you act respectfully in Englewood or North Lawndale that you'll be left alone.
  - exstudent2 11y ago
    It is true (as true as it can be anywhere). By all means keep making blanket generalizations though because it keeps neighborhoods like that cheap for people like me to live in. I've spent > decade living in "ghettos" and not once have had an incident with the locals. I have however been harassed by cops many times regardless of the neighborhood I'm in.
    - tptacek 11y ago
      I've been fucked with in high-crime neighborhoods in Chicago far more often than I've been fucked with by police (both have happened). I don't think it's particularly good advice to tell people that they're safe in bad neighborhoods as long as they're "respectful".
      - exstudent2 11y ago
        My experience definitely does not match yours, poor people are just like everyone else and I actually find the communities in areas like that to be MUCH stronger if you take the time to get to know people.

Juz16 11y ago

The thing to keep in mind is that America isn't as homogeneous as a European country, it's as diverse as the entire European continent. Would you say that Denmark is a dreadful mess because of the crime rate in Serbia? Probably not.

bilbo0s 11y ago
To be fair to branchless... Chicago's crime rate is not all that high. It certainly would not make a list of the top 50 crime cities in the US. Or even the top 100. (http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/neighborhoods/crime-rates/top100dangerous/ http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/neighborhoods/crime-rates/t...) So, I'm thinking, branchless' thought process probably goes something like this... "If Chicago is this bad with crime and corruption... what must the rest of the US be like???" Having mentioned that, other people are correct as well to point out that not ALL places will have the same level of corruption. Many, many places have far more corruption and crime than Chicago. And many, many places have far less corruption and crime than Chicago. But if you are from Western Europe, the mean level of corruption here in the US may be discomfiting to you.
- sbjustin 11y ago
  30th in murder rate though: http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/top-lists/highest-murder-rate-cities/ http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/top-lists/highest-murder-ra...
  - Pinckney 11y ago
    Murder rate is probably the only statistic that can be trusted. Police are under lots of pressure to make sure crime stats go down, and it's really easy to misclassify or ignore reports for things like armed robbery or rape. A body is harder to hide.
    - jrs235 11y ago
      And crimes committed by police probably won't show up either...

zepto 11y ago

Compared to where?