4 ms·

Lots of things kill bacteria. Bleach for instance. That doesn't mean you should take it as an antibiotic. Conclusion of the article: "The next stage in clinica

by daveguy 11y ago

Lots of things kill bacteria. Bleach for instance. That doesn't mean you should take it as an antibiotic. Conclusion of the article: "The next stage in clinical evaluation involves detailed clinical studies and toxicity testing." No, the next step is just toxicity testing -- long before any sort of clinical study.

sandworm101 11y ago
Before that, don't they have to work out some sort of delivery mechanism? >> When suspended in water, the clay killed 16 strains of ESKAPE bacteria. Suspended, not dissolved. This is millions of tiny rocks stirred up in water. If that were injected into anything all manner of negative processes would start, all ending in massive clots/strokes. Perhaps this has some application externally, maybe on burns, but it isn't going to be injected into anything anytime soon.
- sov 11y ago
  That doesn't necessarily preclude a treatment option nor does it preclude its ability to dissolve in water.
  - sandworm101 11y ago
    The process of killing bacteria may be partially physical. If it is the shape or porosity of some mineral that is key, and if that shape also causes clots, then there may be no chance of a safe treatment.
    - adventured 11y ago
      Except apparently the origination of understanding this clay's potential derives from the First Nations people having already safely used it internally for centuries. If it killed large numbers of the people that took it, they'd have stopped using it.
      - masklinn 11y ago
        > If it killed large numbers of the people that took it, they'd have stopped using it. Eeeehh not necessarily, it just needs to be better than not using it or not being trivially linked to the stuff. Romans used lead as sweetener both indirectly (making defrutum and sapa in lead pot which they'd found gave them a sweeter taste than brass — because of the lead leeching into the boil) and directly after discovering the extraction of lead acetate from litharge using vinegar. And lead acetate remained in wide use as a sweetener well into the european middle-ages as the only alternate sweetener was honey which wasn't that common. Sugarcane sugar imports from India only started after crusaders brought sugar home from raiding sugar caravans in the middle-east, followed by the triangular trade's massive sugarcane exploitations in the new world — and even then it would remain a luxury in most of europe until the 18th century.
        dalke 11y ago
        As further examples, elemental mercury, radium, and phosphorous were also used as medicines even when they did not have redeeming medicinal uses. Eg, Lincoln took mercury pills ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/07/0717_lincoln.html http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/07/0717_lincoln... ) , radium cures were the thing in the 1920s ( http://www.museumofquackery.com/devices/radium.htm http://www.museumofquackery.com/devices/radium.htm ), and in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8701117 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8701117 I mention an account 1931 account of a man who had been "prescribed tonic pills that contained both elemental phosphorous and strychnine". After taking them for 27 years later, he had an advanced case of phossy jaw from the phosphorous.
        Thrymr 11y ago
        > elemental mercury, radium, and phosphorous were also used as medicines even when they did not have redeeming medicinal uses. Well, mercury is a fairly effective antibacterial agent, it's just that we don't use it much anymore because it's also very toxic to humans. I think it still does have some (limited) medical applications.
- hollerith 11y ago
  There are anti-microbial agents, e.g., amphotericin B and nystatin, that when taken orally stay in the gut and do not enter the blood stream, which does not make them useless because many pathogens do the same thing. Moreover, all the therapeutic clays and earths I've heard about, namely bentonite clay, activated charcoal and diatomaceous earth, are suspended in water and drunk.
jMyles 11y ago
> Lots of things kill bacteria. Bleach for instance. I'm not sure that's a reasonable comparison - this is a substance with local repute and a history of successful use. Nobody is claiming that bleach is useful in similar applications.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  Bleach is used to kill bacteria in much the same way as this clay, has been for a long while. Bleach is used worldwide to purify drinking water. It is used, in diluted form, on skin infections. In a way, I personally use it to prevent athlete's foot. If you swim in a chlorine pool (diluted bleach) as much as I do, nothing lives on your skin for long. Swimmers don't suffer athlete's foot.
  - dogma1138 11y ago
    Bleach is also used in dental practice for clearing out bacteria after root canal's when setting the temp filling if hydrogen peroxide doesn't work.
- nl 11y ago
  Nobody is claiming that bleach is useful in similar applications. Au contraire! Sodium hypochlorite is available globally at exceptionally low cost as household bleach in concentrations of 5%-6%.... Sodium hypochlorite has been used as an antiseptic agent in dentistry for more than a century and remains a widely used root canal irrigant at concentrations ranging from 1.0%-5.25%..... The American Dental Association Council on Dental Therapeutics has designated dilute sodium hypochlorite a "mild antiseptics mouth rinse" and suggested its use for direct application to mucous membranes. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/749509_2 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/749509_2
  - Coincoin 11y ago
    Antiseptics != Antibiotics. By similar application we mean completely injested so that it goes into your digestive system and/or bloodstream and selectively kills "bad" stuff only, even in low concentrations. That's what antibiotics do and that's what's so great about them. Nobody uses bleach for that. Bleach and alcohol kill everything they touches at high enough concentrations and barely anything if it's too low.
zappo2938 11y ago
https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/

by daveguy 11y ago

sandworm101 11y ago

Before that, don't they have to work out some sort of delivery mechanism? >> When suspended in water, the clay killed 16 strains of ESKAPE bacteria. Suspended, not dissolved. This is millions of tiny rocks stirred up in water. If that were injected into anything all manner of negative processes would start, all ending in massive clots/strokes. Perhaps this has some application externally, maybe on burns, but it isn't going to be injected into anything anytime soon.

sov 11y ago
That doesn't necessarily preclude a treatment option nor does it preclude its ability to dissolve in water.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  The process of killing bacteria may be partially physical. If it is the shape or porosity of some mineral that is key, and if that shape also causes clots, then there may be no chance of a safe treatment.
  - adventured 11y ago
    Except apparently the origination of understanding this clay's potential derives from the First Nations people having already safely used it internally for centuries. If it killed large numbers of the people that took it, they'd have stopped using it.
    - masklinn 11y ago
      > If it killed large numbers of the people that took it, they'd have stopped using it. Eeeehh not necessarily, it just needs to be better than not using it or not being trivially linked to the stuff. Romans used lead as sweetener both indirectly (making defrutum and sapa in lead pot which they'd found gave them a sweeter taste than brass — because of the lead leeching into the boil) and directly after discovering the extraction of lead acetate from litharge using vinegar. And lead acetate remained in wide use as a sweetener well into the european middle-ages as the only alternate sweetener was honey which wasn't that common. Sugarcane sugar imports from India only started after crusaders brought sugar home from raiding sugar caravans in the middle-east, followed by the triangular trade's massive sugarcane exploitations in the new world — and even then it would remain a luxury in most of europe until the 18th century.
      - dalke 11y ago
        As further examples, elemental mercury, radium, and phosphorous were also used as medicines even when they did not have redeeming medicinal uses. Eg, Lincoln took mercury pills ( http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/07/0717_lincoln.html http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/07/0717_lincoln... ) , radium cures were the thing in the 1920s ( http://www.museumofquackery.com/devices/radium.htm http://www.museumofquackery.com/devices/radium.htm ), and in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8701117 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8701117 I mention an account 1931 account of a man who had been "prescribed tonic pills that contained both elemental phosphorous and strychnine". After taking them for 27 years later, he had an advanced case of phossy jaw from the phosphorous.
        Thrymr 11y ago
        > elemental mercury, radium, and phosphorous were also used as medicines even when they did not have redeeming medicinal uses. Well, mercury is a fairly effective antibacterial agent, it's just that we don't use it much anymore because it's also very toxic to humans. I think it still does have some (limited) medical applications.
hollerith 11y ago
There are anti-microbial agents, e.g., amphotericin B and nystatin, that when taken orally stay in the gut and do not enter the blood stream, which does not make them useless because many pathogens do the same thing. Moreover, all the therapeutic clays and earths I've heard about, namely bentonite clay, activated charcoal and diatomaceous earth, are suspended in water and drunk.

jMyles 11y ago

> Lots of things kill bacteria. Bleach for instance. I'm not sure that's a reasonable comparison - this is a substance with local repute and a history of successful use. Nobody is claiming that bleach is useful in similar applications.

sandworm101 11y ago
Bleach is used to kill bacteria in much the same way as this clay, has been for a long while. Bleach is used worldwide to purify drinking water. It is used, in diluted form, on skin infections. In a way, I personally use it to prevent athlete's foot. If you swim in a chlorine pool (diluted bleach) as much as I do, nothing lives on your skin for long. Swimmers don't suffer athlete's foot.
- dogma1138 11y ago
  Bleach is also used in dental practice for clearing out bacteria after root canal's when setting the temp filling if hydrogen peroxide doesn't work.
nl 11y ago
Nobody is claiming that bleach is useful in similar applications. Au contraire! Sodium hypochlorite is available globally at exceptionally low cost as household bleach in concentrations of 5%-6%.... Sodium hypochlorite has been used as an antiseptic agent in dentistry for more than a century and remains a widely used root canal irrigant at concentrations ranging from 1.0%-5.25%..... The American Dental Association Council on Dental Therapeutics has designated dilute sodium hypochlorite a "mild antiseptics mouth rinse" and suggested its use for direct application to mucous membranes. http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/749509_2 http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/749509_2
- Coincoin 11y ago
  Antiseptics != Antibiotics. By similar application we mean completely injested so that it goes into your digestive system and/or bloodstream and selectively kills "bad" stuff only, even in low concentrations. That's what antibiotics do and that's what's so great about them. Nobody uses bleach for that. Bleach and alcohol kill everything they touches at high enough concentrations and barely anything if it's too low.

zappo2938 11y ago

https://xkcd.com/1217/ https://xkcd.com/1217/