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I think he may be the best refutation against people who don't believe in 10x engineers. Imagine you want to create a VR prototype and get to hire 100 average p

I think he may be the best refutation against people who don't believe in 10x engineers. Imagine you want to create a VR prototype and get to hire 100 average programmers with some experience in the industry, and you're up against Carmack with a month until your demo...

untog 11y ago
I don't think people disbelieve that 10x engineers exist. Just that 98% of those who claim to be one are wrong.
- espadrine 11y ago
  I disbelieve. That said, I don't contend that some people are not at some point 10 times more productive than others. I contend that anyone can be just as productive, and often are, were or will be, although the manner in which they should be productive is absolutely not clear-cut. Society as a whole shapes how we act. Diversity in its composition allows what we rely upon. For instance, I would not be as productive at work if I had to take care of a few children on my own. Similarly, I am extremely unproductive while gardening, and don't intend to spend the time to improve.
  - eloff 11y ago
    You're practically coming out and saying that all humans are equal and the only productivity differences can be attributed to other factors. That's a ridiculous position to take.
    - adventured 11y ago
      And extremely easy to disprove at this point with brain scans vs capabilities. We know enough about the brain now to understand that some people are born with advantages (or disadvantages), whether that's in memory or social skills.
  - samizdatum 11y ago
    You're making a far stronger claim than denying that some people are not 10x more productive than others. You're claiming that anyone can be just as productive as anyone else. That seems to either be such a strong claim that it's trivial to refute, (i.e. a newborn baby, or a quadriplegic with severe mental retardation, etc.), or too nebulous and ill-defined to be of any use (i.e. said quadriplegic is productive in cultivating character in carers?)
- akmiller 11y ago
  Right. Like almost any other subject, there will be a handful of people at the top and below them many more who are likely very good at what they do, but will probably never achieve what the top x% do. I consider myself one that's very good, but I look at people like Carmack and realize I will never be one of them...that won't stop me from trying to though!
- goalieca 11y ago
  10x engineers don't exist in a process heavy workplace (eg: scrum agile). They're more like 2x engineers.
  - JustSomeNobody 11y ago
    Yeah, there's no way you could have a John Carmack in an enterprise. They'd go absolutely bat poop crazy.
walkingolof 11y ago
To be fair, he gets to do things he is really into, compared to mentioned 100 average programmers that probably works on some less stellar projects, often bogged down with red-tape and middle management o-plenty
- akmiller 11y ago
  He "gets" to do it because he became one of the best at it. I'm certain anyone that becomes the best at something can make money doing it!
samizdatum 11y ago
Carmack is just insanely productive. He had a working prototype of the GearVR Netflix app three days after he started working with Netflix to develop it, and pretty much finished the app a week later. Have a read about how he developed the app: http://techblog.netflix.com/2015/09/john-carmack-on-developing-netflix-app.html http://techblog.netflix.com/2015/09/john-carmack-on-developi... It's almost beyond belief what he managed to accomplish in one and a half weeks. Hacking the Netflix video decoding system, fine-tuning the UX control heuristics, working around DRM limitations, optimizing the power draw and thermals, and much more, all on top of implementing the very polished app itself.
- sheepdestroyer 11y ago
  He explained in a talk how after Netflix sent an engineer to work with him, the poor lad had to quit of exhaustion and go back home. Carmack's colleague said something like "hey you broke the Netflix guy"
  - noir_lord 11y ago
    Was it this talk? http://www.twitch.tv/oculus/v/17538854?t=3h31m00s http://www.twitch.tv/oculus/v/17538854?t=3h31m00s
    - samizdatum 11y ago
      Yeah, the YouTube is better quality, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti_3SqavXjk&t=55m50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti_3SqavXjk&t=55m50s This link will start playing as Carmack tells the "broken Netflix engineer" story, while recounting how he finished the app in that incredibly short timeframe.
      - yitchelle 11y ago
        Thanks for sharing. I wound it back to the start and started to watch it. John made an interesting premise of the gap VR is trying to fill. Essentially, it is filling the gaps that is in your real life with VR. Hmm...Would it better to strive for improvement in your real life?
Teckla 11y ago
Not all 10x programmers are created equal. Some of them leave a disaster in their wake. They're fast because they're sloppy, and don't take the time to refactor their new code into something maintainable. The team pays the price for that later. I'm not suggesting John Carmack is one of those bad 10x developers, but they do exist. Just something to keep in mind.
- dmix 11y ago
  Such 10x programmers are perfect for some situations, for example building a prototype. It may be wise to leave it as a prototype and build V2 from scratch after that point - taking many of the best parts from the earlier experiment. I've been on the former end enough times where I'd rather the next team of engineers didn't use it as the base. I often learn many lessons from building V1 which would be a strong base for rebuilding it properly. Erlang creator Mike Williams: “If you don’t make experiments before starting a project, then your whole project will be an experiment”. Unfortunately many startup founders don't see the dev process as experiment-driven, rather as a monolithic beast the continually needs evolution and refinement. The opportunity costs of rebuilding a prototype-quality app using lessons learned from it vs building on top of it are real - rebuilding is not always as risky as many people make it out to be. Context matters.
joelthelion 11y ago
People like Carmack are only relevant for extremely technical problems such as VR. I don't think Carmack would have the productivity of 100 average guys if he was working on a typical CRUD business application.
- maybeok 11y ago
  People with ability that does not go beyond CRUD are not relevant at all. A generic CRUD interface can be auto-generated by a machine.
sliverstorm 11y ago
If you have exactly one individual to hold up as proof of your point, for all practical intents & purposes, you've just proven the opposite.
kspaans 11y ago
He admits that he works long hours to get that productivity though[0]. He's probably 10x better than many who would work the same hours as him, but I'd be willing to bet if he limited himself to 40 hours a week he wouldn't still be 10x better. (Not trying to make any judgements either way, just an observation & prediction.) 0 - https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/684475417726595072 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/684475417726595072

untog 11y ago

I don't think people disbelieve that 10x engineers exist. Just that 98% of those who claim to be one are wrong.

espadrine 11y ago
I disbelieve. That said, I don't contend that some people are not at some point 10 times more productive than others. I contend that anyone can be just as productive, and often are, were or will be, although the manner in which they should be productive is absolutely not clear-cut. Society as a whole shapes how we act. Diversity in its composition allows what we rely upon. For instance, I would not be as productive at work if I had to take care of a few children on my own. Similarly, I am extremely unproductive while gardening, and don't intend to spend the time to improve.
- eloff 11y ago
  You're practically coming out and saying that all humans are equal and the only productivity differences can be attributed to other factors. That's a ridiculous position to take.
  - adventured 11y ago
    And extremely easy to disprove at this point with brain scans vs capabilities. We know enough about the brain now to understand that some people are born with advantages (or disadvantages), whether that's in memory or social skills.
- samizdatum 11y ago
  You're making a far stronger claim than denying that some people are not 10x more productive than others. You're claiming that anyone can be just as productive as anyone else. That seems to either be such a strong claim that it's trivial to refute, (i.e. a newborn baby, or a quadriplegic with severe mental retardation, etc.), or too nebulous and ill-defined to be of any use (i.e. said quadriplegic is productive in cultivating character in carers?)
akmiller 11y ago
Right. Like almost any other subject, there will be a handful of people at the top and below them many more who are likely very good at what they do, but will probably never achieve what the top x% do. I consider myself one that's very good, but I look at people like Carmack and realize I will never be one of them...that won't stop me from trying to though!
goalieca 11y ago
10x engineers don't exist in a process heavy workplace (eg: scrum agile). They're more like 2x engineers.
- JustSomeNobody 11y ago
  Yeah, there's no way you could have a John Carmack in an enterprise. They'd go absolutely bat poop crazy.

walkingolof 11y ago

To be fair, he gets to do things he is really into, compared to mentioned 100 average programmers that probably works on some less stellar projects, often bogged down with red-tape and middle management o-plenty

akmiller 11y ago
He "gets" to do it because he became one of the best at it. I'm certain anyone that becomes the best at something can make money doing it!

samizdatum 11y ago

Carmack is just insanely productive. He had a working prototype of the GearVR Netflix app three days after he started working with Netflix to develop it, and pretty much finished the app a week later. Have a read about how he developed the app: http://techblog.netflix.com/2015/09/john-carmack-on-developing-netflix-app.html http://techblog.netflix.com/2015/09/john-carmack-on-developi... It's almost beyond belief what he managed to accomplish in one and a half weeks. Hacking the Netflix video decoding system, fine-tuning the UX control heuristics, working around DRM limitations, optimizing the power draw and thermals, and much more, all on top of implementing the very polished app itself.

sheepdestroyer 11y ago
He explained in a talk how after Netflix sent an engineer to work with him, the poor lad had to quit of exhaustion and go back home. Carmack's colleague said something like "hey you broke the Netflix guy"
- noir_lord 11y ago
  Was it this talk? http://www.twitch.tv/oculus/v/17538854?t=3h31m00s http://www.twitch.tv/oculus/v/17538854?t=3h31m00s
  - samizdatum 11y ago
    Yeah, the YouTube is better quality, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti_3SqavXjk&t=55m50s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti_3SqavXjk&t=55m50s This link will start playing as Carmack tells the "broken Netflix engineer" story, while recounting how he finished the app in that incredibly short timeframe.
    - yitchelle 11y ago
      Thanks for sharing. I wound it back to the start and started to watch it. John made an interesting premise of the gap VR is trying to fill. Essentially, it is filling the gaps that is in your real life with VR. Hmm...Would it better to strive for improvement in your real life?

Teckla 11y ago

Not all 10x programmers are created equal. Some of them leave a disaster in their wake. They're fast because they're sloppy, and don't take the time to refactor their new code into something maintainable. The team pays the price for that later. I'm not suggesting John Carmack is one of those bad 10x developers, but they do exist. Just something to keep in mind.

dmix 11y ago
Such 10x programmers are perfect for some situations, for example building a prototype. It may be wise to leave it as a prototype and build V2 from scratch after that point - taking many of the best parts from the earlier experiment. I've been on the former end enough times where I'd rather the next team of engineers didn't use it as the base. I often learn many lessons from building V1 which would be a strong base for rebuilding it properly. Erlang creator Mike Williams: “If you don’t make experiments before starting a project, then your whole project will be an experiment”. Unfortunately many startup founders don't see the dev process as experiment-driven, rather as a monolithic beast the continually needs evolution and refinement. The opportunity costs of rebuilding a prototype-quality app using lessons learned from it vs building on top of it are real - rebuilding is not always as risky as many people make it out to be. Context matters.

joelthelion 11y ago

People like Carmack are only relevant for extremely technical problems such as VR. I don't think Carmack would have the productivity of 100 average guys if he was working on a typical CRUD business application.

maybeok 11y ago
People with ability that does not go beyond CRUD are not relevant at all. A generic CRUD interface can be auto-generated by a machine.

sliverstorm 11y ago

If you have exactly one individual to hold up as proof of your point, for all practical intents & purposes, you've just proven the opposite.

kspaans 11y ago

He admits that he works long hours to get that productivity though[0]. He's probably 10x better than many who would work the same hours as him, but I'd be willing to bet if he limited himself to 40 hours a week he wouldn't still be 10x better. (Not trying to make any judgements either way, just an observation & prediction.) 0 - https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/684475417726595072 https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/status/684475417726595072