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>...being overweight is still your fault Citation needed. The ability of human beings to control their biology through willpower is limited (if you don't beli

>...being overweight is still your fault Citation needed. The ability of human beings to control their biology through willpower is limited (if you don't believe me, try holding your breath for 30 minutes, or not drinking anything for a few days). Willpower itself is limited, and motivation is itself influenced by mental health. And diseases like Prader-Willi and Emery-Dreifuss demonstrate situations in which motivation and willpower are irrelevant. And that's only what we know. Sometimes when I have dinner with friends, I'll observe a situation where two of them will order the same thing, the bigger one will wolf down the dinner and the thinner one will pick at it and eat maybe half. I don't see two people equally tempted, where one gives it to his cravings and other is morally strong. I see two people with two different drives. Why do different people respond so differently the same meal? What is it our society that leads so many people to consume a calorie surplus? It's disappointing the number of people that don't even want to investigate the biological and psychological origins of such phenomenon, instead claiming (without evidence) that it's all about moral failure. In the 19th century, when painkillers first started becoming available, physicians would refuse to give them to woman in childbirth, because the Bible says childbirth is supposed to be painful. Women had sinned, therefore they must suffer. That's nonsense, of course, but people really wanted to hold onto their moral judgements, even at the expense of biology, good medicine, and relief of suffering. I think we should be suspicious of any impulse to use moral judgement to avoid investigation into the causes of medical conditions. Like obesity.

rayiner 11y ago
> In the 19th century, when painkillers first started becoming available, physicians would refuse to give them to woman in childbirth, because the Bible says childbirth is supposed to be painful. Women had sinned, therefore they must suffer. This is a great analogy. "It's your fault" is not a public health policy, it's a cop-out. And it doesn't even make sense. Obesity is rising dramatically in developed countries. Is the current generation just morally inferior to the ones that came before? Obesity is peoples' fault in the same way car accidents are. That doesn't mean the proper response is to simply blame people, instead of using science to devise solutions.
- pbhjpbhj 11y ago
  >Obesity is peoples' fault in the same way car accidents are. That doesn't mean the proper response is to simply blame people, instead of using science to devise solutions. // But if obesity is primarily the fault of the person who is obese lacking will power then shouldn't we start by doing things directly addressing this. For example, I snack late at night - except when there are no snacks in the house. Sometimes I'll still make food, but mainly I'll just wander around feeling tetchy and eventually get distracted enough to not think about it. For me it absolutely is lack of willpower (which is much better recently probably due to antidepressant meds) to avoid eating things I know aren't healthy for me; or indeed just to eat less in general. If we're looking to prime cause then for me willpower seemingly fits the bill, as you say that revelation may not help to fix things for me - if I can do outdoor pursuits for a week then I can lose weight no problems! - but healthcare workers looking to help me should perhaps seek ways to enforce diet that don't rely on my willpower so much rather than just ignore willpower deficiency altogether?
  - npsimons 11y ago
    > But if obesity is primarily the fault of the person who is obese lacking will power then shouldn't we start by doing things directly addressing this. Yes, we should. The average weight has gone up far faster than humans can change genetically, so people start looking for things like gut flora or epigenetics. Occam's razor would point to the average supermarket and restaurant selection of today versus a few generations ago to explain the obesity epidemic. Cheaper, faster, tastier food (capitalism optimizes for these three qualities in food), and more riveting, less active indoor pursuits can easily explain it. That's not to say the research is worthless, but gut biome most likely influences subconscious cravings, not BMR, and epigenetics is still young enough that many biologists think that pulling conclusions from research into it is premature at best.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  > This is a great analogy. "It's your fault" is not a public health policy, it's a cop-out. A cop-out from what, exactly? Does society have a responsibility to make everyone thin? Even if you say it does, how would you propose it goes about doing that? There's no scalable, organizable effort you can take that will make fat people thin. If you say we have to throw more money at research, I say, sure, we should! Along with every other worthy cause. Where we're going to get the money, I've no idea. If you do, that's a completely different kind of argument.
aaxe 11y ago
Did you just compare holding your breath for 30m to not eating? Fail.

rayiner 11y ago

> In the 19th century, when painkillers first started becoming available, physicians would refuse to give them to woman in childbirth, because the Bible says childbirth is supposed to be painful. Women had sinned, therefore they must suffer. This is a great analogy. "It's your fault" is not a public health policy, it's a cop-out. And it doesn't even make sense. Obesity is rising dramatically in developed countries. Is the current generation just morally inferior to the ones that came before? Obesity is peoples' fault in the same way car accidents are. That doesn't mean the proper response is to simply blame people, instead of using science to devise solutions.

pbhjpbhj 11y ago
>Obesity is peoples' fault in the same way car accidents are. That doesn't mean the proper response is to simply blame people, instead of using science to devise solutions. // But if obesity is primarily the fault of the person who is obese lacking will power then shouldn't we start by doing things directly addressing this. For example, I snack late at night - except when there are no snacks in the house. Sometimes I'll still make food, but mainly I'll just wander around feeling tetchy and eventually get distracted enough to not think about it. For me it absolutely is lack of willpower (which is much better recently probably due to antidepressant meds) to avoid eating things I know aren't healthy for me; or indeed just to eat less in general. If we're looking to prime cause then for me willpower seemingly fits the bill, as you say that revelation may not help to fix things for me - if I can do outdoor pursuits for a week then I can lose weight no problems! - but healthcare workers looking to help me should perhaps seek ways to enforce diet that don't rely on my willpower so much rather than just ignore willpower deficiency altogether?
- npsimons 11y ago
  > But if obesity is primarily the fault of the person who is obese lacking will power then shouldn't we start by doing things directly addressing this. Yes, we should. The average weight has gone up far faster than humans can change genetically, so people start looking for things like gut flora or epigenetics. Occam's razor would point to the average supermarket and restaurant selection of today versus a few generations ago to explain the obesity epidemic. Cheaper, faster, tastier food (capitalism optimizes for these three qualities in food), and more riveting, less active indoor pursuits can easily explain it. That's not to say the research is worthless, but gut biome most likely influences subconscious cravings, not BMR, and epigenetics is still young enough that many biologists think that pulling conclusions from research into it is premature at best.
vinceguidry 11y ago
> This is a great analogy. "It's your fault" is not a public health policy, it's a cop-out. A cop-out from what, exactly? Does society have a responsibility to make everyone thin? Even if you say it does, how would you propose it goes about doing that? There's no scalable, organizable effort you can take that will make fat people thin. If you say we have to throw more money at research, I say, sure, we should! Along with every other worthy cause. Where we're going to get the money, I've no idea. If you do, that's a completely different kind of argument.

aaxe 11y ago

Did you just compare holding your breath for 30m to not eating? Fail.