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How the CIA Helped Produce 'Zero Dark Thirty'

148 points by dsr12 11y ago

mynewtb 11y ago
The movie left me so disgusted as its message was that torture works.
- samstave 11y ago
  We call that propaganda round these parts! --- Seriously though, the disgusting narrative over the last 16 years has left me completely numb and disenfranchised from the idea of justice in the US. There is just a mountain of evidence that we are living in the police-state side of an Empircal Oligarchy in the US. The Oligarchs experience unfettered financial, political and legal freedom -- whilst their position is protected and enforced by the police-state-complex that punishes the poor or the questioning. /cynicism
  - cryoshon 11y ago
    Yeah, but the proles don't believe it yet because they've been propagandized since birth that the US can do no wrong. The propaganda is starting to seem a bit hollow for a few too many people, though.
  - finid 11y ago
    That your comment and @cryoshon were down-voted shows how some of us feel about these things The CIA and others like it, like our elected officials, is a reflection of who we are. They are a mirror.
    - nitrogen 11y ago
      They are a mirror. Maybe, if mirrors could reach back out and change what they are reflecting. Like a fun house mirror.
    - chroma 11y ago
      I didn't downvote them, but I find both comments lacking in substance. We live in a police state? There's an Empircal(sic?) Oligarchy? Americans are indoctrinated from birth? These statements seem completely disconnected from reality. If they were backed-up with some evidence or arguments, I'd be less dismissive.
      - samstave 11y ago
        I will provide a detailed and backed up comment - but may I ask how old you are?
        jevgeni 11y ago
        Real mature, Sam. And since the personality of the commenter matters all of a sudden, then tell me, have you ever lived outside of the U.S.? Because you must be incredibly sheltered and never really encountered the things you accuse the U.S. of, if you think that the country is an oligarchy or a police state.
        samstave 11y ago
        Apologies if you think me asking for world-view-context via the GPs age was immature... Their personality is of no matter - I asked their age just to see where they were coming from, its a fair question. While I have not lived outside the US, I have followed the intelligence apparatus for many years; My brother, a general in the Air force, who was personal doctor the the joint chiefs of staff as their flight surgeon, as well as me who was personal IT handler for the head of DHS... and a long time person in IT in SV... I dont fuck around with my credibility This country is fucked. The whole system is fucked. Do I really need to spell it out for you? If you want to say it is NOT fucked -- then please enlighten me!!! PLEASE I need some hope - but other than what I see what is going on -- THERE IS NONE So, give me some, please.
        jevgeni 11y ago
        U.S. has the 10th biggest GDP per capita in the world. People express their opinion and don't get shot, stabbed, or poisoned for it. There is no war. Your politicians may be corrupt, but not to the point where they shit in gold plated toilets[1] or have their own palaces[2]. Your main problems are income and social inequality. And your tax code. There are people literally risking their lives so that their children could have a life comparable to yours. Oh boohoo. Get your shit together. ___ [1] - http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/world/europe/dazed-ukrainians-take-first-look-at-the-opulence-their-leader-left-behind.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/world/europe/dazed-ukraini... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace
    - hueving 11y ago
      Yes, it shows that some of us think it's the same old melodramatic junk that is so over the top that it drowns out any actual reason.
      - samstave 11y ago
        Refute my reason then, will you. I have DECADES of knowledge on this subject. I swear I can refute anything you could possibly espouse.
  - eternalban 11y ago
    Why sign off with cynical? I came to this country a few decades ago and it was nothing like this. We are witnessing social engineering in action. It has been quite effective.
- gaius 11y ago
  And 24. Someone is clearly running an orchestrated campaign to convince the public torture works...
  - hoorayimhelping 11y ago
    I think clearly might be a little strong. It's not a very hard stretch of the imagination to believe that two separate groups of writers and/or producers think torture is effective.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    That torture works is a reflexive movie/TV trope that goes back long before the recent CIA programs. More generally, the attitude in Hollywood is that prisoners rights, procedural protections, etc, are just technical impediments that get in the way of law enforcement doing their jobs and saving lives.
    - refurb 11y ago
      That's actually a great point. Thinking back to all of the TV shows and movies about crime, it is a very common theme to have a character get off on a technicality or have the police complain "we know this guys guilty, but we just can't get the evidence". This goes far beyond what the CIA is influencing. It's just a common theme in crime dramas. What's the last major motion picture where the focus was on the importance of the rights of people accused of crimes? I can't think of many and the ones I can think of are the documentaries about actual cases of abuse.
    - jordanb 11y ago
      When Dirty Harry came out, Roger Ebert called it a fascist film: the rogue cop out violating people's rights and murdering members of the public was the hero and the courts, defense lawyers, etc were villains trying to stop him from "getting the bad guy." But Dirty Harry became an archetype in American film. Now there are hundreds of films with the protagonist being a "tough guy cop" who "doesn't play by the book." It's no wonder how our society has become what it is. Here's Ebert's review: http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/dirty-harry-1971 http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/dirty-harry-1971
- kiba 11y ago
  It feels intuitive that torture works. Even I think that, even though with sufficient amount of torture, you can get a guy to say anything you want to hear.
  - api 11y ago
    ... which is valuable if you want "intelligence" to launch the next war.
    - chroma 11y ago
      OK, what is the implication here? That a cabal of government officials would deliberately start a war under false pretenses, costing trillions of dollars and thousands of their own countrymen's lives... for what? Profit? They could rake in far more by tacking a couple riders on popular bills. It's unwise to caricature your opponents as evil or stupid. Not only is it an impediment to understanding them, but it makes any sort of dialogue impossible.
      - api 11y ago
        So given that torture is objectively not reliable for obtaining truthful evidence, what is a good non evil non stupid explanation? I consider torture itself evil under all but the most extreme and rare ticking time bomb scenarios. Little to none of the enhanced interrogation stuff I've read about fits into that category. So that leaves the question of whether the motives are also evil or just stupid. Doing something that you know doesn't work on the theory it will intimidate is stupid, especially with an enemy that comes from an honor culture that relishes conflict and values martyrdom. Failing to evaluate your techniques for actual success rate is stupid. And so on...
      - CamperBob2 11y ago
        I assume this is the dryest sarcasm this side of a Martian sand dune.
      - MaysonL 11y ago
        So for what reason did they?
- newman314 11y ago
  That movie and American Sniper were pretty blatant attempts. I'm okay with say Die Hard as that's entertainment but these go far beyond with the veneer of "truth"
  - rpgmaker 11y ago
    I do agree that they essentially endorsed torture but to me ZDT was just boring period. Ironically, the most entertaining/interesting part of the movie were the first 30 minutes when they dealt with torture, it's downhill from there. American Sniper is more entertaining, at least.
- chroma 11y ago
  I haven't seen the movie and I don't know what's depicted in it, but I'm pretty sure torture can be morally justified in some cases. Consider a real-life example of torture described in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.[1] At a gas station, a woman briefly leaves her car to pay for fuel. In the minute she's gone, a man hops in and drives away. Unbeknownst to the car thief, the woman's infant is sleeping in the back seat. The thief soon discovers this and ditches the car. Police quickly catch him at a nearby train station. He's carrying valuables from the car. There is video of him stealing the car. Despite his denials, there is no question this man is the car thief. It's over 100ºF out. The police need to find the car before the baby dies of heat stroke. A police officer describes the incident: > In the police truck on the way to the police station: “Where did you leave the Hyundai?” Denial instead of dissimulation: “It wasn't me.” It was—property stolen from the car was found in his pockets. In the detectives' office: “It's been twenty minutes since you took the car—little tin box like that car—It will heat up like an oven under this sun. Another twenty minutes and the child's dead or brain damaged. Where did you dump the car?” Again: “It wasn't me.” > Appeals to decency, to reason, to self-interest: “It's not too late; tell us where you left the car and you will only be charged with Take-and-Use. That's just a six month extension of your recognizance.” Threats: “If the child dies I will charge you with Manslaughter!” Sneering, defiant and belligerent; he made no secret of his contempt for the police. Part-way through his umpteenth, “It wasn't me”, a questioner clipped him across the ear as if he were a child, an insult calculated to bring the Islander to his feet to fight, there a body-punch elicited a roar of pain, but he fought back until he lapsed into semi-consciousness under a rain of blows. He quite enjoyed handing out a bit of biffo, but now, kneeling on hands and knees in his own urine, in pain he had never known, he finally realised the beating would go on until he told the police where he had abandoned the child and the car. > The police officers' statements in the prosecution brief made no mention of the beating; the location of the stolen vehicle and the infant inside it was portrayed as having been volunteered by the defendant. The defendant's counsel availed himself of this falsehood in his plea in mitigation. When found, the stolen child was dehydrated, too weak to cry; there were ice packs and dehydration in the casualty ward but no long-time prognosis on brain damage. I think the actions of the police are unimpeachable. Had they not tortured the thief, an innocent child would be dead. Now, does that mean I think torture should be legal? Of course not. Do I think the CIA has committed atrocities and violated human rights? Yes! But that doesn't mean torture doesn't work. 1. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/#CasStuBea http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/#CasStuBea
- smt88 11y ago
  If you watch almost any superhero show, even the ones that are explicitly for children, you'll see that a huge amount of "investigation" into crimes is done by threatening to kill criminals and often by torturing them. Look at Batman. The idea that torture works is bedrock in the entertainment world, partially because it's a narrative shortcut and shows how far the "hero" is willing to go.
  - colordrops 11y ago
    Even worse is the message towards the end of Dark Knight, where Robin throws his badge in the water, claiming that the system and law enforcement don't work, and the only option is their secretive extra-legal vigilantism. Sounds like an excuse for all the extralegal methods various agencies have been using in the supposed fight against terrorism.
    - acqq 11y ago
      > sounds like an excuse for all the extralegal methods various agencies have been using ...and even for complete extremism, like pure terrorism. Still, it's also true that the premise "the system and law enforcement don't work" is really the basis of all superhero narratives. That's how the need for the superheros is justified.
    - rhizome 11y ago
      Is your idea that people in the agencies are justifying things because they saw them in a movie once?
      - voltagex_ 11y ago
        I remember reading http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/nov/24/torture-jack-bauer-24-redemption http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/nov/24/torture..., I hope it's exaggerated.
        hartpuff 11y ago
        From that article: >"People [in Guantanamo] had already seen the first series, it was hugely popular." Others who were at Guantánamo at the time confirmed her account. Some described to me how the series contributed directly to an environment encouraging those in the interrogation facility to see themselves as being on the front line, and to go further than they otherwise might have So torturers at Guantanamo had to get lessons on torture from a TV series which, prior to Season 4, was basically torture-free and pro-Muslim? From Season 4, 24 was fascistic, pro-torture garbage, but it was taking its cue from real life US policy, not directing it.
- InclinedPlane 11y ago
  Sadly this is a very common message in popular culture. In a race to be "gritty and realistic" there are so many cop and military shows where torture is used by the "good guys" in service to the plot, with positive results. It's a shame how willingly and unthinkingly hollywood puts forth this torture propaganda, most of the time of their own volition.
  - touristtam 11y ago
    I am pretty sure that is due to the medium and the target audience. We, in the west, have had a Manichean view of the world for quite a long time. No wonder Hollywood is reusing this common and almost confortable view of the world.
    - InclinedPlane 11y ago
      It's more than that. There's a deep-seated idea of the virtue of retributive violence. There is the idea of not just the value of vengeance but the rightness and necessity of it, and this is thoroughly involved in popular culture and the entire criminal justice system. This is the reason why people believe in the value of torture and why people laugh about the idea of sexual assault in prisons (because "bad guys" deserve to be hurt, even brutalized). It's the reason why we're ok with medieval conditions in our prison system even as those individuals end up back in society (because in so far as prison is hellish that makes it an even more effective punishment for wrong-doing). And so on. It's an incredibly barbaric value system which seems to be changing incredibly slowly.
- wmeredith 11y ago
  Wait am I dumb? The tip that led to Bin laden in the movie had nothing to do with interrogation program, right?
  - chrisbennet 11y ago
    A Pakistani intelligence guy tipped the US off for the reward. Neither torture nor diligent work by NSA or CIA was responsible for locating Bin Laden. That wouldn't make a very good movie though. From Wikipedia: In August 2010, a former Pakistani intelligence officer approached the U.S. embassy station chief in Islamabad and offered to provide Bin Laden's location, in return for the $25 million reward, according to a retired senior U.S. intelligence official.[17] This story was corroborated by two U.S. intelligence officials speaking to NBC news, and had been previously reported by intelligence analyst Raelynn Hillhouse.[18][19] The Pakistani official informed U.S. intelligence that Bin Laden had been located by Pakistani ISI in 2006, and held under house arrest near Pakistani intelligence and military centers ever since. The official passed polygraph tests, after which the U.S. began local and satellite surveillance of Bin Laden's Abbottabad residence.[17]
    - rmc 11y ago
      The US also set up a vaccination centre that collected and analyzed DNA of people they vaccinationed in order to confirm that Bin Laden's family (and hence Bin Laden himself) were in there. The downside of this is clear, "Foreign vaccination centres are really CIA spying stations!" is now no longer a conspiracy theory, but something that actually happened.
      - chrisbennet 11y ago
        I wonder if that little project will (by making people avoid vaccines) eventually kill more innocents than the drone program?
- jMyles 11y ago
  ...as so much media seems to do now. Standing in contrast, if you are looking for that, is a wonderful two-part episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation called "The Chain of Command."
Spooky23 11y ago
Shouldn't be a surprise, the CIA has been involved in the art and media world for a very long time. Here's what the first Google search turned up: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-w... "For decades in art circles it was either a rumour or a joke, but now it is confirmed as a fact. The Central Intelligence Agency used American modern art - including the works of such artists as Jackson Pollock, Robert Motherwell, Willem de Kooning and Mark Rothko - as a weapon in the Cold War. In the manner of a Renaissance prince - except that it acted secretly - the CIA fostered and promoted American Abstract Expressionist painting around the world for more than 20 years." Of course modern art also is a great means to throw lots of money around, which is probably a bonus for these sorts of programs.
- sandworm101 11y ago
  They used the art. The difference here is that the CIA is actually painting the pictures. While rare for a group like the CIA to actually create content, a great many movies have been influenced. The US military supports many productions, from StarTrek to Battleship, reducing costs and increasing accuracy. But when asked they have failed to support others, notably Independence Day. Influence and persuasion has always been there in hollywood. Zero-Dark is just that much closer to the line between legitimate art and propaganda. ok, TopGun was pure propaganda, but USN wasn't actually writing the scripts.
  - Zigurd 11y ago
    the other difference is that Zero Dark Thirty is domestic propaganda, aimed at perpetuating the GWoT. Torquing the Soviet Peoples Art Commisars, and maybe fooling a few wealthy collectors, is pretty innocent by comparison.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - andThenButThen 11y ago
      ...and then there's the part about Vice being yet another component of that same CIA apparatus, although not specifically related to the GWoT. If that's not absurdly obvious to anyone by now, keeping lapping up your Vice articles with all the same subversive glee of a purported guilty pleasure, as ever, and remain blissfully deluded.
1337biz 11y ago
I always wondered if Kathryn Bigelow is somehow related to Robert Bigelow of Bigelow Airospace. Later has long been the center of a bunch of conspiracy theories.
- psykovsky 11y ago
  You haven't wondered very much, I guess, or you would've cleared your doubts by now. From wikipedia, after a 5 sec search: Bigelow was born in San Carlos, California, the only child of Gertrude Kathryn (née Larson; 1917–1994), a librarian, and Ronald Elliot Bigelow (1915–1992), a paint factory manager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Bigelow#Early_life_and_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Bigelow#Early_life_and...
  - pessimizer 11y ago
    That two of the people most closely related to her are not Robert Bigelow of Bigelow Aerospace is not in any way evidence that she is not related to Robert Bigelow of Bigelow Aerospace. Never heard of the conspiracy theory or Bigelow Aerospace, just about how logic works.
wukerplank 11y ago
Watching Zero Dark Thirty, I immediately thought that this was an attempt to write history. With the flair of historical accuracy and lots of pathos.
- chippy 11y ago
  did you mean "an attempt to re-write history"?
- rasz_pl 11y ago
  Argo (2012) also did this.
cryoshon 11y ago
Yeah, at the time people like Sy Hersh called out ZDT as being a completely fabricated propaganda piece. Of course, if you watch the movie, it's obviously fictitious, but the veneer of realism is enough to implant ZDT as the cultural "canon" story. That's the problem. We let them define what the canon is.
golergka 11y ago
Read half of it and haven't found anything newsworthy. So far they describe that (1) one of movie authors was present during the secret award ceremony without getting a proper security clearance and (2) the officer the movie was based on ordered fries in movie guy's hotel, got cheap knock-off earrings as a present and declined offers to go to a Prada show and attend private movie screening with family. Is there anything actually worth the time in the second half?
- jallmann 11y ago
  The "behind the scenes" information is interesting, but you are right, there is nothing particularly scandalous here. This article is meant to feed into the backlash over the thematic narrative of Zero Dark Thirty (probably the reason for the FOIA lawsuit in the first place). In fact, I can't help but feel for civil servants (in general, not just for the CIA) who apparently have to walk on tip-toes, lest the smallest details of their lives be scrutinized under a microscope every time there is a bit of attention from a controversy-hungry media. This is an issue with local reporting (at least, here in San Diego) and it is bothersome, especially when there is really nothing to report, for the sake of column inches.
- beams_of_light 11y ago
  Those are news-worthy things.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
mtgx 11y ago
Many if not most of the TV shows or movies where you see heavy army gear and equipment that wouldn't be there without the government's cooperation, will be heavily influenced by the government and in what light it shows the US government. It's why I stopped watching shows like 24, Homeland, Person of Interest, and so on, after the first season or two. I couldn't stomach the propaganda anymore.
- walshemj 11y ago
  Don't remember seing any army stuff in POI.
  - noir_lord 11y ago
    There isn't and the entire story is premised on the government not giving a shit about normal crime, hell all of season 3 is about what happens when an entire police force is corrupted top to bottom. One of my favourite shows.
    - walshemj 11y ago
      Err you'd rather that the cia and nsa went beyond their remit and the constitution. Not shure that HR are a main protagonist by season 2
- Gustomaximus 11y ago
  Is Homeland propaganda? They convey the CIA in a bad light quite often. The whole anti-drone strike message is very blatant.
  - sdm 11y ago
    At no point do they claim drone-ing is wrong or immoral. It's the bad guys that tricked them. And the whole, normalizing it as just a mistake. Carrie is never punished for her crime. There is no introspection on the issue. It was purely an apologist part of the storyline.
  - 11y ago
joesmo 11y ago
I have little respect for any director or producer who produces propaganda and absolutely no respect for any director or producer who does so at the behest of the government. Also, the movie itself was terrible, even seen as the far fetched fiction it is.
SN76477 11y ago
I see a lot of movies like this as a sort of propaganda. what it does is shows that our heros are hard working american soldiers that defeat that worst of the worst. In reality I think that it is much more grey.
- toomanybeersies 11y ago
  It's interesting contrasting American/UK films against other western films. I'm a big fan of the Hamilton movies, which are basically Swedish James Bond movies. In them, the PLO are actually the good guys, and the Americans are the bad guys. It's an interesting contrast.
rrggrr 11y ago
Angry about this? Director Panetta tried to throw the book at Ishmael Jones for his 2010 CIA memoir, The Human Factor. Suitable method of protest and entertaining read would be to buy the book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Human-Factor-Dysfunctional-Intelligence/dp/159403382X http://www.amazon.com/The-Human-Factor-Dysfunctional-Intelli...
anonbanker 11y ago
The american public would be astounded if they knew how much of their entertainment was literally war propaganda. You know, if you could get them to pay attention long enough to believe it.
- toomanybeersies 11y ago
  It's been that way ever since film was a viable medium.
- rawTruthHurts 11y ago
  Considering how much the public swallows this stuff, I don't think they would be much astounded at all.

148 points by dsr12 11y ago

mynewtb 11y ago

The movie left me so disgusted as its message was that torture works.

samstave 11y ago
We call that propaganda round these parts! --- Seriously though, the disgusting narrative over the last 16 years has left me completely numb and disenfranchised from the idea of justice in the US. There is just a mountain of evidence that we are living in the police-state side of an Empircal Oligarchy in the US. The Oligarchs experience unfettered financial, political and legal freedom -- whilst their position is protected and enforced by the police-state-complex that punishes the poor or the questioning. /cynicism
- cryoshon 11y ago
  Yeah, but the proles don't believe it yet because they've been propagandized since birth that the US can do no wrong. The propaganda is starting to seem a bit hollow for a few too many people, though.
- finid 11y ago
  That your comment and @cryoshon were down-voted shows how some of us feel about these things The CIA and others like it, like our elected officials, is a reflection of who we are. They are a mirror.
  - nitrogen 11y ago
    They are a mirror. Maybe, if mirrors could reach back out and change what they are reflecting. Like a fun house mirror.
  - chroma 11y ago
    I didn't downvote them, but I find both comments lacking in substance. We live in a police state? There's an Empircal(sic?) Oligarchy? Americans are indoctrinated from birth? These statements seem completely disconnected from reality. If they were backed-up with some evidence or arguments, I'd be less dismissive.
    - samstave 11y ago
      I will provide a detailed and backed up comment - but may I ask how old you are?
      - jevgeni 11y ago
        Real mature, Sam. And since the personality of the commenter matters all of a sudden, then tell me, have you ever lived outside of the U.S.? Because you must be incredibly sheltered and never really encountered the things you accuse the U.S. of, if you think that the country is an oligarchy or a police state.
        samstave 11y ago
        Apologies if you think me asking for world-view-context via the GPs age was immature... Their personality is of no matter - I asked their age just to see where they were coming from, its a fair question. While I have not lived outside the US, I have followed the intelligence apparatus for many years; My brother, a general in the Air force, who was personal doctor the the joint chiefs of staff as their flight surgeon, as well as me who was personal IT handler for the head of DHS... and a long time person in IT in SV... I dont fuck around with my credibility This country is fucked. The whole system is fucked. Do I really need to spell it out for you? If you want to say it is NOT fucked -- then please enlighten me!!! PLEASE I need some hope - but other than what I see what is going on -- THERE IS NONE So, give me some, please.
        jevgeni 11y ago
        U.S. has the 10th biggest GDP per capita in the world. People express their opinion and don't get shot, stabbed, or poisoned for it. There is no war. Your politicians may be corrupt, but not to the point where they shit in gold plated toilets[1] or have their own palaces[2]. Your main problems are income and social inequality. And your tax code. There are people literally risking their lives so that their children could have a life comparable to yours. Oh boohoo. Get your shit together. ___ [1] - http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/world/europe/dazed-ukrainians-take-first-look-at-the-opulence-their-leader-left-behind.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/world/europe/dazed-ukraini... [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin%27s_Palace
  - hueving 11y ago
    Yes, it shows that some of us think it's the same old melodramatic junk that is so over the top that it drowns out any actual reason.
    - samstave 11y ago
      Refute my reason then, will you. I have DECADES of knowledge on this subject. I swear I can refute anything you could possibly espouse.
- eternalban 11y ago
  Why sign off with cynical? I came to this country a few decades ago and it was nothing like this. We are witnessing social engineering in action. It has been quite effective.
gaius 11y ago
And 24. Someone is clearly running an orchestrated campaign to convince the public torture works...
- hoorayimhelping 11y ago
  I think clearly might be a little strong. It's not a very hard stretch of the imagination to believe that two separate groups of writers and/or producers think torture is effective.
- rayiner 11y ago
  That torture works is a reflexive movie/TV trope that goes back long before the recent CIA programs. More generally, the attitude in Hollywood is that prisoners rights, procedural protections, etc, are just technical impediments that get in the way of law enforcement doing their jobs and saving lives.
  - refurb 11y ago
    That's actually a great point. Thinking back to all of the TV shows and movies about crime, it is a very common theme to have a character get off on a technicality or have the police complain "we know this guys guilty, but we just can't get the evidence". This goes far beyond what the CIA is influencing. It's just a common theme in crime dramas. What's the last major motion picture where the focus was on the importance of the rights of people accused of crimes? I can't think of many and the ones I can think of are the documentaries about actual cases of abuse.
  - jordanb 11y ago
    When Dirty Harry came out, Roger Ebert called it a fascist film: the rogue cop out violating people's rights and murdering members of the public was the hero and the courts, defense lawyers, etc were villains trying to stop him from "getting the bad guy." But Dirty Harry became an archetype in American film. Now there are hundreds of films with the protagonist being a "tough guy cop" who "doesn't play by the book." It's no wonder how our society has become what it is. Here's Ebert's review: http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/dirty-harry-1971 http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/dirty-harry-1971
kiba 11y ago
It feels intuitive that torture works. Even I think that, even though with sufficient amount of torture, you can get a guy to say anything you want to hear.
- api 11y ago
  ... which is valuable if you want "intelligence" to launch the next war.
  - chroma 11y ago
    OK, what is the implication here? That a cabal of government officials would deliberately start a war under false pretenses, costing trillions of dollars and thousands of their own countrymen's lives... for what? Profit? They could rake in far more by tacking a couple riders on popular bills. It's unwise to caricature your opponents as evil or stupid. Not only is it an impediment to understanding them, but it makes any sort of dialogue impossible.
    - api 11y ago
      So given that torture is objectively not reliable for obtaining truthful evidence, what is a good non evil non stupid explanation? I consider torture itself evil under all but the most extreme and rare ticking time bomb scenarios. Little to none of the enhanced interrogation stuff I've read about fits into that category. So that leaves the question of whether the motives are also evil or just stupid. Doing something that you know doesn't work on the theory it will intimidate is stupid, especially with an enemy that comes from an honor culture that relishes conflict and values martyrdom. Failing to evaluate your techniques for actual success rate is stupid. And so on...
    - CamperBob2 11y ago
      I assume this is the dryest sarcasm this side of a Martian sand dune.
    - MaysonL 11y ago
      So for what reason did they?
newman314 11y ago
That movie and American Sniper were pretty blatant attempts. I'm okay with say Die Hard as that's entertainment but these go far beyond with the veneer of "truth"
- rpgmaker 11y ago
  I do agree that they essentially endorsed torture but to me ZDT was just boring period. Ironically, the most entertaining/interesting part of the movie were the first 30 minutes when they dealt with torture, it's downhill from there. American Sniper is more entertaining, at least.
chroma 11y ago
I haven't seen the movie and I don't know what's depicted in it, but I'm pretty sure torture can be morally justified in some cases. Consider a real-life example of torture described in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.[1] At a gas station, a woman briefly leaves her car to pay for fuel. In the minute she's gone, a man hops in and drives away. Unbeknownst to the car thief, the woman's infant is sleeping in the back seat. The thief soon discovers this and ditches the car. Police quickly catch him at a nearby train station. He's carrying valuables from the car. There is video of him stealing the car. Despite his denials, there is no question this man is the car thief. It's over 100ºF out. The police need to find the car before the baby dies of heat stroke. A police officer describes the incident: > In the police truck on the way to the police station: “Where did you leave the Hyundai?” Denial instead of dissimulation: “It wasn't me.” It was—property stolen from the car was found in his pockets. In the detectives' office: “It's been twenty minutes since you took the car—little tin box like that car—It will heat up like an oven under this sun. Another twenty minutes and the child's dead or brain damaged. Where did you dump the car?” Again: “It wasn't me.” > Appeals to decency, to reason, to self-interest: “It's not too late; tell us where you left the car and you will only be charged with Take-and-Use. That's just a six month extension of your recognizance.” Threats: “If the child dies I will charge you with Manslaughter!” Sneering, defiant and belligerent; he made no secret of his contempt for the police. Part-way through his umpteenth, “It wasn't me”, a questioner clipped him across the ear as if he were a child, an insult calculated to bring the Islander to his feet to fight, there a body-punch elicited a roar of pain, but he fought back until he lapsed into semi-consciousness under a rain of blows. He quite enjoyed handing out a bit of biffo, but now, kneeling on hands and knees in his own urine, in pain he had never known, he finally realised the beating would go on until he told the police where he had abandoned the child and the car. > The police officers' statements in the prosecution brief made no mention of the beating; the location of the stolen vehicle and the infant inside it was portrayed as having been volunteered by the defendant. The defendant's counsel availed himself of this falsehood in his plea in mitigation. When found, the stolen child was dehydrated, too weak to cry; there were ice packs and dehydration in the casualty ward but no long-time prognosis on brain damage. I think the actions of the police are unimpeachable. Had they not tortured the thief, an innocent child would be dead. Now, does that mean I think torture should be legal? Of course not. Do I think the CIA has committed atrocities and violated human rights? Yes! But that doesn't mean torture doesn't work. 1. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/#CasStuBea http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/#CasStuBea
smt88 11y ago
If you watch almost any superhero show, even the ones that are explicitly for children, you'll see that a huge amount of "investigation" into crimes is done by threatening to kill criminals and often by torturing them. Look at Batman. The idea that torture works is bedrock in the entertainment world, partially because it's a narrative shortcut and shows how far the "hero" is willing to go.
- colordrops 11y ago
  Even worse is the message towards the end of Dark Knight, where Robin throws his badge in the water, claiming that the system and law enforcement don't work, and the only option is their secretive extra-legal vigilantism. Sounds like an excuse for all the extralegal methods various agencies have been using in the supposed fight against terrorism.
  - acqq 11y ago
    > sounds like an excuse for all the extralegal methods various agencies have been using ...and even for complete extremism, like pure terrorism. Still, it's also true that the premise "the system and law enforcement don't work" is really the basis of all superhero narratives. That's how the need for the superheros is justified.
  - rhizome 11y ago
    Is your idea that people in the agencies are justifying things because they saw them in a movie once?
    - voltagex_ 11y ago
      I remember reading http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/nov/24/torture-jack-bauer-24-redemption http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/nov/24/torture..., I hope it's exaggerated.
      - hartpuff 11y ago
        From that article: >"People [in Guantanamo] had already seen the first series, it was hugely popular." Others who were at Guantánamo at the time confirmed her account. Some described to me how the series contributed directly to an environment encouraging those in the interrogation facility to see themselves as being on the front line, and to go further than they otherwise might have So torturers at Guantanamo had to get lessons on torture from a TV series which, prior to Season 4, was basically torture-free and pro-Muslim? From Season 4, 24 was fascistic, pro-torture garbage, but it was taking its cue from real life US policy, not directing it.
InclinedPlane 11y ago
Sadly this is a very common message in popular culture. In a race to be "gritty and realistic" there are so many cop and military shows where torture is used by the "good guys" in service to the plot, with positive results. It's a shame how willingly and unthinkingly hollywood puts forth this torture propaganda, most of the time of their own volition.
- touristtam 11y ago
  I am pretty sure that is due to the medium and the target audience. We, in the west, have had a Manichean view of the world for quite a long time. No wonder Hollywood is reusing this common and almost confortable view of the world.
  - InclinedPlane 11y ago
    It's more than that. There's a deep-seated idea of the virtue of retributive violence. There is the idea of not just the value of vengeance but the rightness and necessity of it, and this is thoroughly involved in popular culture and the entire criminal justice system. This is the reason why people believe in the value of torture and why people laugh about the idea of sexual assault in prisons (because "bad guys" deserve to be hurt, even brutalized). It's the reason why we're ok with medieval conditions in our prison system even as those individuals end up back in society (because in so far as prison is hellish that makes it an even more effective punishment for wrong-doing). And so on. It's an incredibly barbaric value system which seems to be changing incredibly slowly.
wmeredith 11y ago
Wait am I dumb? The tip that led to Bin laden in the movie had nothing to do with interrogation program, right?
- chrisbennet 11y ago
  A Pakistani intelligence guy tipped the US off for the reward. Neither torture nor diligent work by NSA or CIA was responsible for locating Bin Laden. That wouldn't make a very good movie though. From Wikipedia: In August 2010, a former Pakistani intelligence officer approached the U.S. embassy station chief in Islamabad and offered to provide Bin Laden's location, in return for the $25 million reward, according to a retired senior U.S. intelligence official.[17] This story was corroborated by two U.S. intelligence officials speaking to NBC news, and had been previously reported by intelligence analyst Raelynn Hillhouse.[18][19] The Pakistani official informed U.S. intelligence that Bin Laden had been located by Pakistani ISI in 2006, and held under house arrest near Pakistani intelligence and military centers ever since. The official passed polygraph tests, after which the U.S. began local and satellite surveillance of Bin Laden's Abbottabad residence.[17]
  - rmc 11y ago
    The US also set up a vaccination centre that collected and analyzed DNA of people they vaccinationed in order to confirm that Bin Laden's family (and hence Bin Laden himself) were in there. The downside of this is clear, "Foreign vaccination centres are really CIA spying stations!" is now no longer a conspiracy theory, but something that actually happened.
    - chrisbennet 11y ago
      I wonder if that little project will (by making people avoid vaccines) eventually kill more innocents than the drone program?
jMyles 11y ago
...as so much media seems to do now. Standing in contrast, if you are looking for that, is a wonderful two-part episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation called "The Chain of Command."

Spooky23 11y ago

Shouldn't be a surprise, the CIA has been involved in the art and media world for a very long time. Here's what the first Google search turned up: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-weapon-1578808.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/modern-art-was-cia-w... "For decades in art circles it was either a rumour or a joke, but now it is confirmed as a fact. The Central Intelligence Agency used American modern art - including the works of such artists as Jackson Pollock, Robert Motherwell, Willem de Kooning and Mark Rothko - as a weapon in the Cold War. In the manner of a Renaissance prince - except that it acted secretly - the CIA fostered and promoted American Abstract Expressionist painting around the world for more than 20 years." Of course modern art also is a great means to throw lots of money around, which is probably a bonus for these sorts of programs.

sandworm101 11y ago
They used the art. The difference here is that the CIA is actually painting the pictures. While rare for a group like the CIA to actually create content, a great many movies have been influenced. The US military supports many productions, from StarTrek to Battleship, reducing costs and increasing accuracy. But when asked they have failed to support others, notably Independence Day. Influence and persuasion has always been there in hollywood. Zero-Dark is just that much closer to the line between legitimate art and propaganda. ok, TopGun was pure propaganda, but USN wasn't actually writing the scripts.
- Zigurd 11y ago
  the other difference is that Zero Dark Thirty is domestic propaganda, aimed at perpetuating the GWoT. Torquing the Soviet Peoples Art Commisars, and maybe fooling a few wealthy collectors, is pretty innocent by comparison.
  - deleted 11y ago
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  - andThenButThen 11y ago
    ...and then there's the part about Vice being yet another component of that same CIA apparatus, although not specifically related to the GWoT. If that's not absurdly obvious to anyone by now, keeping lapping up your Vice articles with all the same subversive glee of a purported guilty pleasure, as ever, and remain blissfully deluded.

1337biz 11y ago

I always wondered if Kathryn Bigelow is somehow related to Robert Bigelow of Bigelow Airospace. Later has long been the center of a bunch of conspiracy theories.

psykovsky 11y ago
You haven't wondered very much, I guess, or you would've cleared your doubts by now. From wikipedia, after a 5 sec search: Bigelow was born in San Carlos, California, the only child of Gertrude Kathryn (née Larson; 1917–1994), a librarian, and Ronald Elliot Bigelow (1915–1992), a paint factory manager. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Bigelow#Early_life_and_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Bigelow#Early_life_and...
- pessimizer 11y ago
  That two of the people most closely related to her are not Robert Bigelow of Bigelow Aerospace is not in any way evidence that she is not related to Robert Bigelow of Bigelow Aerospace. Never heard of the conspiracy theory or Bigelow Aerospace, just about how logic works.

wukerplank 11y ago

Watching Zero Dark Thirty, I immediately thought that this was an attempt to write history. With the flair of historical accuracy and lots of pathos.

chippy 11y ago
did you mean "an attempt to re-write history"?
rasz_pl 11y ago
Argo (2012) also did this.

cryoshon 11y ago

Yeah, at the time people like Sy Hersh called out ZDT as being a completely fabricated propaganda piece. Of course, if you watch the movie, it's obviously fictitious, but the veneer of realism is enough to implant ZDT as the cultural "canon" story. That's the problem. We let them define what the canon is.

golergka 11y ago

Read half of it and haven't found anything newsworthy. So far they describe that (1) one of movie authors was present during the secret award ceremony without getting a proper security clearance and (2) the officer the movie was based on ordered fries in movie guy's hotel, got cheap knock-off earrings as a present and declined offers to go to a Prada show and attend private movie screening with family. Is there anything actually worth the time in the second half?

jallmann 11y ago
The "behind the scenes" information is interesting, but you are right, there is nothing particularly scandalous here. This article is meant to feed into the backlash over the thematic narrative of Zero Dark Thirty (probably the reason for the FOIA lawsuit in the first place). In fact, I can't help but feel for civil servants (in general, not just for the CIA) who apparently have to walk on tip-toes, lest the smallest details of their lives be scrutinized under a microscope every time there is a bit of attention from a controversy-hungry media. This is an issue with local reporting (at least, here in San Diego) and it is bothersome, especially when there is really nothing to report, for the sake of column inches.
beams_of_light 11y ago
Those are news-worthy things.

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mtgx 11y ago

Many if not most of the TV shows or movies where you see heavy army gear and equipment that wouldn't be there without the government's cooperation, will be heavily influenced by the government and in what light it shows the US government. It's why I stopped watching shows like 24, Homeland, Person of Interest, and so on, after the first season or two. I couldn't stomach the propaganda anymore.

walshemj 11y ago
Don't remember seing any army stuff in POI.
- noir_lord 11y ago
  There isn't and the entire story is premised on the government not giving a shit about normal crime, hell all of season 3 is about what happens when an entire police force is corrupted top to bottom. One of my favourite shows.
  - walshemj 11y ago
    Err you'd rather that the cia and nsa went beyond their remit and the constitution. Not shure that HR are a main protagonist by season 2
Gustomaximus 11y ago
Is Homeland propaganda? They convey the CIA in a bad light quite often. The whole anti-drone strike message is very blatant.
- sdm 11y ago
  At no point do they claim drone-ing is wrong or immoral. It's the bad guys that tricked them. And the whole, normalizing it as just a mistake. Carrie is never punished for her crime. There is no introspection on the issue. It was purely an apologist part of the storyline.
- 11y ago

joesmo 11y ago

I have little respect for any director or producer who produces propaganda and absolutely no respect for any director or producer who does so at the behest of the government. Also, the movie itself was terrible, even seen as the far fetched fiction it is.

SN76477 11y ago

I see a lot of movies like this as a sort of propaganda. what it does is shows that our heros are hard working american soldiers that defeat that worst of the worst. In reality I think that it is much more grey.

toomanybeersies 11y ago
It's interesting contrasting American/UK films against other western films. I'm a big fan of the Hamilton movies, which are basically Swedish James Bond movies. In them, the PLO are actually the good guys, and the Americans are the bad guys. It's an interesting contrast.

rrggrr 11y ago

Angry about this? Director Panetta tried to throw the book at Ishmael Jones for his 2010 CIA memoir, The Human Factor. Suitable method of protest and entertaining read would be to buy the book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Human-Factor-Dysfunctional-Intelligence/dp/159403382X http://www.amazon.com/The-Human-Factor-Dysfunctional-Intelli...

anonbanker 11y ago

The american public would be astounded if they knew how much of their entertainment was literally war propaganda. You know, if you could get them to pay attention long enough to believe it.

toomanybeersies 11y ago
It's been that way ever since film was a viable medium.
rawTruthHurts 11y ago
Considering how much the public swallows this stuff, I don't think they would be much astounded at all.