8 ms·

To me, the story of salt strongly highlights the difference between science (as in, the results of scientific experiments and careful reasoning), and "science",

To me, the story of salt strongly highlights the difference between science (as in, the results of scientific experiments and careful reasoning), and "science", the things the general public is told science has found by journalists and policymakers. Not only was there was never a strong scientific basis for telling people to reduce their salt intake, my anecdotal observation is that it's fairly easy to wind up salt-deficient and get symptoms. Sweat contains salt (1g/L), so when exercising or in high temperatures, I need to eat more of it, or I'll get fatigued and physical exertion will become impossible. (Sweat also makes exercise a confounder in studies that look at urinary excretion.) Meanwhile, foods that we think of as "salty" are usually not actually salty, but rather, are designed to create salt pica. If you start eating potato chips, with most American brands, you'll get to 2000 calories before you get to a typical salt intake (which is 3.5g).

niccaluim 11y ago
you'll get to 2000 calories before you get to a typical salt intake (which is 3.5g) Challenge accepted!
hmottestad 11y ago
Just looked up a bag of chips: 100g: 525 cal 1.5 g salt Multiply by ~3.8: 380g: 2000 cal 5.7 g salt Your mileage may vary, but in Norway, a typical bag of chips contains more than 3.5g of salt per 2000 calories.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  Looked up a nutrition label online: https://healthyeatingrocks.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/lays-chips.png https://healthyeatingrocks.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/lays-... 1 oz: 150 Calories 180 mg sodium multiply by 20/3: 6.667 oz: 2000 Calories 1.2g sodium The kosher salt in my cupboard (ingredients: salt and an anti-caking agent) is 40% sodium by mass (480 mg sodium per 1.2 grams). Or, going by the atomic mass listed here ( http://www.chemicalelements.com/show/mass.html http://www.chemicalelements.com/show/mass.html ), sodium chloride should be 39% sodium by mass. Assuming an even 40%, that's 3 grams of salt (NaCl) in 2000 Calories of american potato chips. (Or, assuming the less generous actual amu ratio, 3.05 grams of salt per 2000 Calories ;D ) HOWEVER: the nutrition label also indicates almost twice as much potassium (330 mg) as sodium. If that potassium is also salt (KCl), the chips will handily exceed 3.5 grams of salt per 2000 Calories.
  - ableal 11y ago
    I've read somewhere before that the issue may be K vs. Na balance. Take that with a grain of ... nevermind.
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      If that's true, those potato chips should be made with a lot more sodium. (Or, you know, some more sodium and less potassium. I don't think people would eat the "now with 62% more table salt" version of the chips.) Wikipedia says: an ion pump exchanges 3 sodium ions for 2 potassium ions. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium ) 3 sodium ions is 69 atomic mass units. 2 potassiums is 78.2 atomic mass units.
  - areyousure 11y ago
    150 times 20/3 is 1000
    - thaumasiotes 11y ago
      Right you are! Double the other figures. :(
- jimrandomh 11y ago
  I think this is a difference between Norway and the United States.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    The major difference appears to be the label's use of "salt" rather than "sodium" as in the US. Using the data from my other comment, and assuming the potassium in the potato chips is also "salt", the 2000 Calories of US potato chips contain 7.25 grams of salt, of which 3.05g is sodium chloride and 4.2g is potassium chloride.
reitanqild 11y ago
Problem is: the real scientists didn't speak out loudly. And, the bigger problem: many of them as well as others have very good reasons for keeping shut. Few people want to be vilified by mainstream media and the PC crowd.
- venomsnake 11y ago
  Bigger problem is - real scientists lack the built in unmovable conviction of being right the frauds and quacks have.
gadders 11y ago
It's a public health thing, no? If they tell 10,000 people to decrease their salt intake, they've saved (made up figure) 10 lives. So they say everyone decrease salt, rather than the more nuanced message which is "Salt might be dangerous for some people."
- marcosdumay 11y ago
  > ...the less sodium that study subjects excreted in their urine—an excellent measure of prior consumption—the greater their risk was of dying from heart disease When you have no idea about the consequences of an act, the right thing to do is not to go out and tell everyone to do it. How many of the 10,000 are you endangering by cutting their sodium intake? Worse yet, you are not cutting their potassium intake. What long term consequences will it have on their muscular and nervous systems? Nobody seems to know. And the point is moot anyway. It's not like we can't detect sodium sensitivity. In fact, it's almost certainly easier to discover who those 10 people are than to get the population to reduce their sodium intake.
  - gadders 11y ago
    Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm arguing that they should be explicit in their message and not get everyone to take (often unneeded) action.
semi-extrinsic 11y ago
Indeed, things you think are salty are not the foods you get most your salt intake from. The biggest source of salt in your diet is actually often bread! Typical store-bought bread is around 0.75g of salt per 100g. Several EU countries recommend a daily intake of 250g of bread, which gives you the same amount of salt as a 100g bag of potato chips.
JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Back on the farm we always had a bottle of 'salt pills' on the dashboard of the pickup. Anybody who felt the effects of the sun was encouraged to suck on one.
appleflaxen 11y ago
what is "salt pica"? the only thing I see on google is eating actual table salt. it seems like you are talking about something else.
- jimrandomh 11y ago
  "X pica" in my local dialect means "doing something because you need or want X, when that doesn't provide it". It's a generalition of the medical condition pica, which is eating non-food things like ice cubes because you need more iron. http://lesswrong.com/lw/15w/experiential_pica/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/15w/experiential_pica/

niccaluim 11y ago

you'll get to 2000 calories before you get to a typical salt intake (which is 3.5g) Challenge accepted!

hmottestad 11y ago

Just looked up a bag of chips: 100g: 525 cal 1.5 g salt Multiply by ~3.8: 380g: 2000 cal 5.7 g salt Your mileage may vary, but in Norway, a typical bag of chips contains more than 3.5g of salt per 2000 calories.

thaumasiotes 11y ago
Looked up a nutrition label online: https://healthyeatingrocks.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/lays-chips.png https://healthyeatingrocks.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/lays-... 1 oz: 150 Calories 180 mg sodium multiply by 20/3: 6.667 oz: 2000 Calories 1.2g sodium The kosher salt in my cupboard (ingredients: salt and an anti-caking agent) is 40% sodium by mass (480 mg sodium per 1.2 grams). Or, going by the atomic mass listed here ( http://www.chemicalelements.com/show/mass.html http://www.chemicalelements.com/show/mass.html ), sodium chloride should be 39% sodium by mass. Assuming an even 40%, that's 3 grams of salt (NaCl) in 2000 Calories of american potato chips. (Or, assuming the less generous actual amu ratio, 3.05 grams of salt per 2000 Calories ;D ) HOWEVER: the nutrition label also indicates almost twice as much potassium (330 mg) as sodium. If that potassium is also salt (KCl), the chips will handily exceed 3.5 grams of salt per 2000 Calories.
- ableal 11y ago
  I've read somewhere before that the issue may be K vs. Na balance. Take that with a grain of ... nevermind.
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    If that's true, those potato chips should be made with a lot more sodium. (Or, you know, some more sodium and less potassium. I don't think people would eat the "now with 62% more table salt" version of the chips.) Wikipedia says: an ion pump exchanges 3 sodium ions for 2 potassium ions. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium ) 3 sodium ions is 69 atomic mass units. 2 potassiums is 78.2 atomic mass units.
- areyousure 11y ago
  150 times 20/3 is 1000
  - thaumasiotes 11y ago
    Right you are! Double the other figures. :(
jimrandomh 11y ago
I think this is a difference between Norway and the United States.
- thaumasiotes 11y ago
  The major difference appears to be the label's use of "salt" rather than "sodium" as in the US. Using the data from my other comment, and assuming the potassium in the potato chips is also "salt", the 2000 Calories of US potato chips contain 7.25 grams of salt, of which 3.05g is sodium chloride and 4.2g is potassium chloride.

reitanqild 11y ago

Problem is: the real scientists didn't speak out loudly. And, the bigger problem: many of them as well as others have very good reasons for keeping shut. Few people want to be vilified by mainstream media and the PC crowd.

venomsnake 11y ago
Bigger problem is - real scientists lack the built in unmovable conviction of being right the frauds and quacks have.

gadders 11y ago

It's a public health thing, no? If they tell 10,000 people to decrease their salt intake, they've saved (made up figure) 10 lives. So they say everyone decrease salt, rather than the more nuanced message which is "Salt might be dangerous for some people."

marcosdumay 11y ago
> ...the less sodium that study subjects excreted in their urine—an excellent measure of prior consumption—the greater their risk was of dying from heart disease When you have no idea about the consequences of an act, the right thing to do is not to go out and tell everyone to do it. How many of the 10,000 are you endangering by cutting their sodium intake? Worse yet, you are not cutting their potassium intake. What long term consequences will it have on their muscular and nervous systems? Nobody seems to know. And the point is moot anyway. It's not like we can't detect sodium sensitivity. In fact, it's almost certainly easier to discover who those 10 people are than to get the population to reduce their sodium intake.
- gadders 11y ago
  Yes, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm arguing that they should be explicit in their message and not get everyone to take (often unneeded) action.

semi-extrinsic 11y ago

Indeed, things you think are salty are not the foods you get most your salt intake from. The biggest source of salt in your diet is actually often bread! Typical store-bought bread is around 0.75g of salt per 100g. Several EU countries recommend a daily intake of 250g of bread, which gives you the same amount of salt as a 100g bag of potato chips.

JoeAltmaier 11y ago

Back on the farm we always had a bottle of 'salt pills' on the dashboard of the pickup. Anybody who felt the effects of the sun was encouraged to suck on one.

appleflaxen 11y ago

what is "salt pica"? the only thing I see on google is eating actual table salt. it seems like you are talking about something else.

jimrandomh 11y ago
"X pica" in my local dialect means "doing something because you need or want X, when that doesn't provide it". It's a generalition of the medical condition pica, which is eating non-food things like ice cubes because you need more iron. http://lesswrong.com/lw/15w/experiential_pica/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/15w/experiential_pica/