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Amazon Hires Homeless Workers, and Everyone Ends Up Disappointed
- Someone1234 11y agoWow that was a really depressing read. I did learn several new problems that homeless people can face getting back into the working world that I wasn't aware of (e.g. night shift work isn't compatible with homeless shelters).
- s0rce 11y agoThe incompatibility of shift work with a homeless shelter was very surprising. Wouldn't 'hot racking' like on a submarine increase the capacity of the shelter and the homeless could get shift jobs that might be easier to find.
- ZanyProgrammer 11y agoThat would imply homeless shelters give a shit about the homeless.
- dpark 11y agoAre they in it for the money? I don't think running a homeless shelter is actually that lucrative.
- thaumasiotes 11y agoThey're in it for the prestige. Showing people that you care about the homeless is a sign of moral virtue, regardless of whether you're actually trying to help. Consider what the jealous groupies sing about Captain Hammer's girlfriend in Dr. Horrible's Singalong Blog: So they say he saved her life They say she works with the homeless, and doesn't eat meat We have a problem with her! Why equate working with the homeless with not eating meat? Those are both displays of feminine caring.
- rtkwe 11y agoShelters can also use the time during the day to clean up and do any maintenance that you couldn't really do with people trying to sleep. Also if the workers are volunteers it'll be way easier to get enough during the evening than any other time.
- balls187 11y agoThere are a number of penalties[1] that when applied to a certain demographic (read: working-poor), disproportionately and unfairly hurt those people--either intentional or otherwise. Penalties that include suspended drivers licenses, municipal fines, asset forfeiture, and even required medical screening, overly penalize poor workers. These folks are so dependent on both the income from their jobs, and the precarious balance they maintain of income to expenses, that anything that threatens either can quickly lead to cascading and compounding problem that become insurmountable. It's very much possible to get ahead in America[2], that's why I love this country. It's also very important to recognize that it's very much possible to create a house of cards that can come crashing down, and that to also recognize that if that has happened to someone, it's not because their unwillingness to work hard, or some other perceived flaw of their character. As an aside, this is one of my favorite moments in US politics: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iGmYhTYLbno https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iGmY... [1] http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/04/09/398576196/study-find-the-poor-subject-to-unfair-fines-drivers-license-suspensions http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/04/09/398576196/... [2] I'm aware of the international readership of HN. However as an American, I can only speak to the opportunities I've experienced.
- thescriptkiddie 11y agoMy takeaway from this is that homeless shelters don't do enough to support employment of the homeless, and that a minimum wage job is not sufficient to get you off the street. Conversations I've had with homeless people seem to corroborate this.
- alexandrerond 11y agoMy takeaway is that Amazon doesn't give a shit about homeless people issues and is just looking for seasonal cheap labor.
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- jonesb6 11y agoTheir a corporation of course they don't care about the issues. My guess is that it cost Amazon more money (opportunity cost had they hired a more fit individual) and that they were actually looking for cheap PR not cheap labor. However Amazon doesn't give a fuck about their minimum-wage employees anywhere, especially in their warehouses.
- axlprose 11y agoI always wonder why people want everything helpful to be the result of some purely altruistic action, when there's at least as much help to be gained from mutually beneficial partnerships. Symbiotic relationships not only require less friction to implement, but they're also a lot more sustainable in the long run, since both parties get something out of it as opposed to just one. Yes, amazon obviously benefits from having a larger labor pool to chose from when hiring the poor, but why is this a bad thing? If you had the opportunity to go make Warren Buffett an extra $1 Billion, but you'd only get a 1% cut of it, would you say that's a bad deal? I would hope not, because 1% of $1,000,000,000 is still $10 Million. You'd have to be either crazy or filthy rich already to turn that down just because it'd make a wealthy person wealthier. A seasonal amazon warehouse job might not be the most luxurious, but it still has an unusually low barrier to entry, and is likely to be sustainable for amazon to provide it regularly. Even most of the wealthiest billionaires had to start out by doing annoying grunt-work at some point in their careers.
- tracker1 11y agoIt seems to me that part of these job fairs should include some funding to help homeless shelters keep daytime operations in place... I'm not sure about the logistics vs. other conventions, but it could/should be similar that part of the fees are operational costs behind the location. Alternatively, how hard would it be for an employer to provide barracks, or other housing options for seasonal employees?
- aharonovich 11y agoSadly I think that if a company supplied housing for temp employees the media would shout slavery.
- true_religion 11y agoPerhaps the shelter who is hosting the fair could agree that workers that take night-shift jobs from the fair will temporarily be allowed to sleep in the shelter during the day. Are they not best positioned, and inclined to help?
- tracker1 11y agoThe problem is, who pays for the extra daytime staff at said shelter... that cost is above and beyond the night staff that the shelter already has... This cost could/should be part of the job fair fees, if the positions are for night staff... so that the shelter can afford to stay open during the day.
- parennoob 11y agoYeah. Maybe I'm having a stupid moment, but could someone ELI5 this to me? > most homeless shelters close during the day and have strict curfews that don’t allow people to arrive in the night I thought homeless shelters had some sort of semi-permanent living arrangement. Does this mean that they essentially drive everyone out during the day? Otherwise, how does it affect work on a night shift?
- dpark 11y ago> Does this mean that they essentially drive everyone out during the day? Yes. Many (most?) homeless shelters are like this. Semi-permanent housing is less common, and it's very difficult to get into due to the limited number of beds. Most semi-permanent housing also has curfew, and might still interfere with night shift work.
- Naritai 11y agoThe semi-permanent arrangements are usually a small number of apartments for which there are months-long waiting lists. It's considered to be like a halfway house, or a dry run for having an actual apartment, and the shelter frequently charges a nominal rent + utils, just to get the tenant into the habit of dealing with monthly bills. But this is a tiny fraction of the total quantity of shelter beds - most are mattresses that are laid out on a gymnasium floor at 8pm (first come first served, so yes the lines form much earlier), then collected and stacked at 7am the next morning when everyone is given a quick breakfast and turfed out onto the street.
- normand1 11y agoDid you read to the end? It's not a depressing read.
- danielrhodes 11y agoIt's almost as if Amazon is being criticised for offering the jobs in the first place, and instead they are being saddled with the entire burden of the issues homeless people face. I think that is unfair. What Amazon agreed to do is essentially look the other way on issues which employers usually see as reasons to not hire. It is very clearly seasonal work and there are many benefits to doing that work which might lead to more reliable jobs in the future.
- cpncrunch 11y agoAgreed. It sounds like the homeless shelters might need to do more to help people who have shift-work. It might not be ideal to work at night, but it certainly beats living on the street and begging IMHO.
- cfcef 11y agoEthical entanglement: if you try to make a problem slightly better, then by not fixing it entirely you are now to blame. Happens all the time: http://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ http://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethi...
- golemotron 11y agoI came here to post that. Thank you.
- rkho 11y agoThanks for posting this.
- cubano 11y agoSounds like exactly what I go through every time I've fixed a malware-laden computer at whatever house I seem to be hanging out at nowadays. Everyone seems to have a laptop that "won't boot" or something...I've had to stop cleaning them for this very reason.
- beachstartup 11y ago
- alexashka 11y agoSounds like a half-hearted effort, resulting in predictable outcomes.
- rustynails 11y agoI took it as a positive. It's an opportunity for homeless people to be given a chance. As long as the lessons are learned. That's a fascinating web site and interesting article. They use the term "people" a lot (great!), but refer specifically to only women being impacted (bad but very PC), "She said she and the other women in her shelter felt burned". That might be that the shelter is a female only shelter, but it's very common.. However, I read about 10 articles on that site. They were only about women or a black man... Very interesting. On the surface, it looks like a prejudiced website (PC on steroids). On a side note, Australian Bureau of Statistics says that ~70% of homeless people are men, but most articles in Australia talk about the plight of homeless women. I wonder if that becomes self-fulfilling: extreme sexism in the media means that homeless men are neglected for Political Correctness' sake. Personally, I think most media have a lot to answer for in driving prejudice as hard as they can, especially in the last few years. While some call for a men's movement, I see how much feminism drives sexism - and we don't need more sexism driven by gender based movements. We need society to universally condemn prejudice.
- FussyZeus 11y agoI took it to mean it was a women only shelter (pretty common actually, for victims of domestic violence).
- jonas21 11y agoThe article mentions that Amazon was working with the YWCA a number of times. The "W" in YWCA stands for women [1], so it's very likely that this was a women's shelter or at the very least a program targeted toward women. So it's unsurprising that the article refers to women being impacted, and I would hardly attribute it sexism or "political correctness". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YWCA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YWCA
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- sabmalik 11y agoI am not sure what this article achieves. I think it only discourages companies from hiring homeless people. How is the risk of going into these kinds of jobs any different for a non-homeless person? Possibly even greater, given they are paying rent/mortgage, car lease whatever. Would it be better if these kinds of job completely abolished? Anyone who puts their hand up for these jobs, knows or should know what they are getting into. Having said that, efforts should be made to work out the issues rather than just bash anyone who is trying to lend a hand (even for selfish reasons). For instance the shelters could adjust their policies and accommodate the people who work during the night (and have proof of it).
- jon-wood 11y ago> Anyone who puts their hand up for these jobs, knows or should know what they are getting into. In many cases they know they're getting into the only job available to them, and that their kids need to eat. We shouldn't be creating a world where people are expected to do strenous physical labour under stressful conditions for barely enough money to live. Amazon is taking billions a year, it doesn't seem unreasonable that the people who make that possible should see some of that.
- sabmalik 11y agoI appreciate the sentiment but what exactly are you proposing?
- jon-wood 11y agoIdeally, companies voluntarily paying at least enough that someone working there can expect enough to live a decent life. Short of that, a higher minimum wage.
- corysama 11y ago> Amazon is taking billions a year, it doesn't seem unreasonable that the people who make that possible should see some of that. Amazon has never made a significant profit and never paid dividends. AFAICT, the people who made Amazon's billions possible (including non-labor costs like suppliers and real estate) have seen pretty much all of it.
- tn13 11y agoEveryone ends up disappointing is a bad characterization. I am surprised that a company as big as Amazon even bothers to hire homeless people. If the people prefer night shelter over night work they could perhaps stay in the shelter. I think we must applaud Amazon for this brave move in first place and homeless people should be thankful to Amazon. Clearly these people have not seen 15 Indian students staying in 2 Bedroom apartment earning below minimum wage for part time work.
- dpark 11y ago>If the people prefer night shelter over night work they could perhaps stay in the shelter. Perhaps they shouldn't have to choose between shelter and employment. >I think we must applaud Amazon for this brave move We can applaud Amazon for trying while also acknowledging problems with the attempt. >Clearly these people have not seen 15 Indian students staying in 2 Bedroom apartment earning below minimum wage for part time work. Maybe not. Instead they've seen 50 hungry people crowd into a shelter trying to get a night's sleep while earning no wage at all. They've also seen 50 more get turned away because the shelter is at capacity. And they've probably been in the second 50 many times themselves. This is ridiculous. Do you suppose students working part time and living in cramped quarters actually have it worse than people who are literally unemployed and homeless?
- tn13 11y agoNo one else has an obligation to fix the world for others. People can only pick between choices they have. 10 people working at night can pool in money and rent a space just to sleep during day time. I have done that in past and it worked well. There are several ways to solve these problems without complaining.
- placeybordeaux 11y agoThe title implies that Amazon was disappointed, that doesn't seem to be the case.
- ars 11y ago> "It may even hurt you ... pay your rent, and then all of a sudden the floor drops out from under you. There could be an eviction, which could hurt chances of landing an apartment later. Or, you know, just leave when you can't pay the rent? Is that not an option? Or do they not expect homeless to be able to do that?
- rtkwe 11y agoLeaving before your lease is up usually has financial penalties and terms shorter than 1 year are more expensive for the exact same apartment.
- lips 11y agoAll political ballyhoo aside, I see this as just a 1/2 baked plan. They had a goal, they apparently didn't look for the big picture or consult with appropriate sources for advise, and they failed. Regardless of any moral or political judgements, it doesn't reflect well on them.
- itgoon 11y agoIf they keep trying, and learning from their mistakes, I'll be happy to forget the initial missteps.
- itgoon 11y agoIt seems to me that an opportunity presents itself: work with the shelters on ingress/egress issues. Amazon should be pretty good at it by now. If it makes it easier for both sides to get what they want, it's not even that big of an expense.
- stevewillows 11y agoWhat would be amazing is if Amazon provided their own shelter for the employees who are taking on the odd shifts. It would give a double incentive to stay clean and work hard. Of course there's an additional expense to this, but if they want to go above and beyond with this particular issue, this could be the first step to a real answer.
- saurik 11y agoI dunno. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town
- stevewillows 11y agoha. That's more extreme. I was thinking more toward a hostel.
- PostThisTooFast 11y agoNice misrepresentation, Amazon.
- pvaldes 11y agoHum, maybe the problem here is not in Amazon, maybe is with the shelters culture. What if some shelters around just reverse its schedule, and start closing by night and opening by day for this people?. Amazon will have what they want Homeless will have a job and a safe place to stay when is colder out and most conflicts between homeless and drunked people arose. I suppose that Amazon pays for heating its buildings. Shelters could save some precious money in electricity and heating and maybe an easier life for shelter's volunteers. It seems that all parts will benefit.
- betaby 11y agoSlightly off topic, but why in US diplomas are not universal? Why nurse from Dallas suddenly is not nurse is Seattle? What is 'good' about that? Personally I have hard time imagine any sane reasoning for that. Are one locked to the state where one did studies? How cross-state studying work then?
- pyre 11y agoIt's not diplomas it's certifications. It (e.g.) a lawyer moves between states he or she may need to take that new state's bar exam.
- betaby 11y agoOk. While it's different, the difference is subtle. As you said for lawyers there is an exam each time one changing state? Same for nurses? Engineers? I can't see good part of that.
- sib 11y agoIn the case of lawyers, there are significant sets of state-specific laws and regulations, so it makes some sense to have separate "certification" by state. My understanding is that, once you have been an attorney for a certain number of years (5?), it is much easier to be admitted to the bar (certified) in a new state.
- pyre 11y agoThe difference is that there is no nationwide licensing body, so the license issued by the "nursing licensing body" in Texas needs to be transferred to the "nursing licensing body" in Washington state. And they need to accept it and turn it into a Washington state nursing certification. Because these are separate bodies there may be different rules, regulations, standards regarding what it takes to be a nurse.
- Ntrails 11y agoYet a doctor can travel between countries who agree to have "equivalence" between qualifications. Law obviously makes sense when so much is state specific, I'd be less convinced by nursing.
- inaudible 11y agoHomelessness shelters will generally be up against some pretty tight constraints. Their service is non-profit, their staffing is either voluntary or tight and their organization structure will be pushed by fluctuating demand. The constraints on a company participating in a program are quite disproportionate, they're looking to fill a seasonal gap and while looking towards a social problem to fill this gap is honourable (and mutually beneficial), they also need to be aware of the duress that mutually beneficial labour can create. This article only attempts to highlight the constraints. Amazon should have better social policy to be deal with the vulnerabilities of the assets they hire in this situation. I'm sure it's a learning experience for the YWCA, but the onus is still on Amazon to be able to better negotiate stable living conditions for the people it employed through such a program. These are people who have the potential to get out of bad situation but are still vulnerable (financially / socially / mentally), and this vulnerability should be realistically accounted for as the real liability that it is to the company employing. No company needs to embark on such a program, they could fill labour shortages through traditional means, but when they do, it should be with some mutual agreement to work with the organisation and employees to ensure a quality outcome. Anything less is socially negligent. It's heartening that Amazon wanted to participate, but I hope they can take on the criticism and help build a better program.
- JohnDoe365 11y agoWhat I get: There is a base line of unattractivety which Amazon crossed. Working under the conditions Amazon provided in that specific program effectively reduced overall utility. Which in turn means that being homeless without that job is better that having a job like that. That should tell something.
- Shivetya 11y agoNo, what I got was that the terms of the job were not communicated correctly, possibly not presented at all. It depends on who at the YMCA was doing the recruiting. Was it an Amazon rep or someone at the YMCA just selling a dream? Warehouse work isn't fun. My employer has a large number scattered across the country and picking and stocking requires some hustle to meet customer demands; ours is more sensitive as we pull for both overnight and on demand. Still there are many people who keep these jobs for years, if not using them as a springboard into better positions within the company (most of our older executives came from pullers). Amazon may or not have a path out of their warehouses, I don't know
- Xtianah 11y agoEmotionalism is the assassin of professionalism.
- Xtianah 11y agoEmotionalism in the workplace spells disaster. Why hire the homeless simply because they're homeless and we need to help them? What they need is rehab not jobs. Give the to the graduates who need them.