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The worst thing in my experience about windows 8/windows 10 apps is that you cannot install apps from 3rd party sources. Sure you can install on a temporary/tes

by _nedR 11y ago

The worst thing in my experience about windows 8/windows 10 apps is that you cannot install apps from 3rd party sources. Sure you can install on a temporary/testing basis by signing in with a dev license, but you have to keep doing this every 3 months until microsoft decides to pull the plug. This is a problem if you are writing an app for a client who doesn't want to publish on the app store. The only option is the very expensive and opaque volume-licensing program which is useless if your app won't have many activations anyway. Ultimately Windows 8/10 is a closed platform similar to iOS. Are we as developers willing to pay 30% of our revenues to Microsoft when the day comes that UWP will replace .net/win32?

pavlov 11y ago
It's possible to sideload apps on Windows 8 and above: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh852635.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh852635.aspx Or is that the volume licensing program option you mention? I'm not sure (never tried it). Edit: sideloading seems much simpler in Windows 10: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh454036.aspx#InstallRemote https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh454036.aspx#Insta...
- _nedR 11y ago
  I remember studying the sideloading option a while back (for Windows 8) and finding out that it wouldn't work in our case for some reason (needed Windows 8 enterprise? need volume-licensing to procure sideloading key?). Am no longer sure, so i will revisit it. Thanks for suggestion. Windows 10 does seem much simpler. Will have to try it out to be sure it works though. If they have removed the volume-licensing nonsense that would be a godsend. update regarding windows 8 sideloading: Yep. After a cursory investigation, it seems that obtaining a sideloading key is the hard part- Its needs volume licensing involving purchasing a minimum of 100 keys for around 3000$ if i am not mistaken (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-apps-on-windows-8-pro https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-app...). I want to be sure so will look at it in more detail though.
johnchristopher 11y ago
> Ultimately Windows 8/10 is a closed platform similar to iOS. Are we as developers willing to pay 30% of our revenues to Microsoft when the day comes that UWP will replace .net/win32? That would explain the move to `offer' Windows 10. But I can't see .net/win32 being replaced before 10 years.
- _nedR 11y ago
  Maybe. But a lot could change in 10 years. For example, UWP is the only serious contender for apps with a rich touch/gesture-based UI. Eventually microsoft will stop adding new features/APIs to other platforms in favour of UWP. For example they might decide not to port the latest DirectX version to .net/win32. That is usually how things play out.
userbinator 11y ago
I find this trend of platforms becoming walled gardens very unpleasant. The whole idea that some entity has control over what you can run on your own hardware just doesn't feel right --- and more so, the fact that most people seem to be completely fine with it. Windows, and DOS before it, used to be very open. Anyone could just download a compiler and create a binary, then use it themselves or share with everyone else. In fact you could even use the built-in debugger (DEBUG) to write tiny assembly-language utilities, and computer magazines --- not even developer ones, but regular ones like PC Mag --- would publish source code listings. Advanced users were also programmers, but there was no real distinction. Now it seems even getting started writing some sort of program for your own system requires going through a huge amount of bureaucracy and could involve payment. The customary way of installing software has been termed "sideloading" and recommended against. There is a rising wall between "users" and "developers", making it harder for the former to become the latter. I suppose Linux is more open, but there is still the very noticeable centralisation of app-store-like repositories, the discouragement of installing software via other means, and the bureaucratic process of getting software into those repositories. Ostensibly, the whole reason for this is security, but it's easy to see other motivations. The idea that almost all users are completely stupid idiots who can't decide for themselves, and effectively locking them up so they can't do anything, is horrible for the continued advancement of computer literacy. Certainly before and outside of these closed platforms there is malware and other threats, but there is also something closed platforms don't have, and which I think is also very important --- freedom. Relevant story: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html
- kuschku 11y ago
  On Linux installing from source is not too uncommon, though, which helps keeping the distinction down.
  - davidgerard 11y ago
    Or e.g. installing the deb of Dropbox on Ubuntu.
- _nedR 11y ago
agentdrtran 11y ago
You can sideloads apps without a dev license.
- _nedR 11y ago
  Windows 10 or Windows 8? Regarding windows 8, its seems you need to purchase sideloading keys in bulk in order to do so, unless you are installing on windows 10 enterprise. If you can provide a method otherwise, that would be big help. Windows 10 seems to be different (no sideloading key required?), but i haven't tried it out or investigated in detail.
thearn4 11y ago
> The worst thing in my experience about windows 8/windows 10 apps is that you cannot install apps from 3rd party sources. I've been away from Windows for awhile so I just want to clarify this - when you say "apps", are you talking about all end-user applications? Or only some sort of desktop widget type system?
- JoachimS 11y ago
  Applications. Apps seems to be the new word for applications.
  - wbkang 11y ago
    Well, application programs? ;)
  - Redoubts 11y ago
    Is it new? Weren't people taking about "Killer Apps" in the 80s?
- Santosh83 11y ago
  I think the poster is talking about programs using the new Microsoft application frameworks and provided through their app store. The older style "Win32" programs can be installed as they always were.
- Solarsail 11y ago
  (Slightly anecdotal answer, but...) Basically everything I used on Win7 works / can be installed just the same on Win10. .msi packages, Chocolatey packages, oddball Win32 apps I've found over the years, even portable programs that haven't been updated since XP. Only had one program mysteriously uninstalled itself when I made the move: IronRuby. I'm not sure if Windows Store apps can be sideloaded, but the only ones I have installed came installed by default. Easy to avoid. (I'm largely expanding on what Santosh83 said in a sibling post.)
douche 11y ago
If there was a really compelling reason to use the new app model over the old win32 desktop apps, I might care about this. For x32/x64 desktops and laptops, I don't see the point at all. Maybe if I had a Windows tablet, apps might be reasonable, but alas, I only have the now-discontinued and never-really-supported Surface RT.

by _nedR 11y ago

pavlov 11y ago

It's possible to sideload apps on Windows 8 and above: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh852635.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh852635.aspx Or is that the volume licensing program option you mention? I'm not sure (never tried it). Edit: sideloading seems much simpler in Windows 10: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh454036.aspx#InstallRemote https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh454036.aspx#Insta...

_nedR 11y ago
I remember studying the sideloading option a while back (for Windows 8) and finding out that it wouldn't work in our case for some reason (needed Windows 8 enterprise? need volume-licensing to procure sideloading key?). Am no longer sure, so i will revisit it. Thanks for suggestion. Windows 10 does seem much simpler. Will have to try it out to be sure it works though. If they have removed the volume-licensing nonsense that would be a godsend. update regarding windows 8 sideloading: Yep. After a cursory investigation, it seems that obtaining a sideloading key is the hard part- Its needs volume licensing involving purchasing a minimum of 100 keys for around 3000$ if i am not mistaken (https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-apps-on-windows-8-pro https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12008252/sideloading-app...). I want to be sure so will look at it in more detail though.

johnchristopher 11y ago

> Ultimately Windows 8/10 is a closed platform similar to iOS. Are we as developers willing to pay 30% of our revenues to Microsoft when the day comes that UWP will replace .net/win32? That would explain the move to `offer' Windows 10. But I can't see .net/win32 being replaced before 10 years.

_nedR 11y ago
Maybe. But a lot could change in 10 years. For example, UWP is the only serious contender for apps with a rich touch/gesture-based UI. Eventually microsoft will stop adding new features/APIs to other platforms in favour of UWP. For example they might decide not to port the latest DirectX version to .net/win32. That is usually how things play out.

userbinator 11y ago

I find this trend of platforms becoming walled gardens very unpleasant. The whole idea that some entity has control over what you can run on your own hardware just doesn't feel right --- and more so, the fact that most people seem to be completely fine with it. Windows, and DOS before it, used to be very open. Anyone could just download a compiler and create a binary, then use it themselves or share with everyone else. In fact you could even use the built-in debugger (DEBUG) to write tiny assembly-language utilities, and computer magazines --- not even developer ones, but regular ones like PC Mag --- would publish source code listings. Advanced users were also programmers, but there was no real distinction. Now it seems even getting started writing some sort of program for your own system requires going through a huge amount of bureaucracy and could involve payment. The customary way of installing software has been termed "sideloading" and recommended against. There is a rising wall between "users" and "developers", making it harder for the former to become the latter. I suppose Linux is more open, but there is still the very noticeable centralisation of app-store-like repositories, the discouragement of installing software via other means, and the bureaucratic process of getting software into those repositories. Ostensibly, the whole reason for this is security, but it's easy to see other motivations. The idea that almost all users are completely stupid idiots who can't decide for themselves, and effectively locking them up so they can't do anything, is horrible for the continued advancement of computer literacy. Certainly before and outside of these closed platforms there is malware and other threats, but there is also something closed platforms don't have, and which I think is also very important --- freedom. Relevant story: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html

kuschku 11y ago
On Linux installing from source is not too uncommon, though, which helps keeping the distinction down.
- davidgerard 11y ago
  Or e.g. installing the deb of Dropbox on Ubuntu.
_nedR 11y ago

agentdrtran 11y ago

You can sideloads apps without a dev license.

_nedR 11y ago
Windows 10 or Windows 8? Regarding windows 8, its seems you need to purchase sideloading keys in bulk in order to do so, unless you are installing on windows 10 enterprise. If you can provide a method otherwise, that would be big help. Windows 10 seems to be different (no sideloading key required?), but i haven't tried it out or investigated in detail.

thearn4 11y ago

> The worst thing in my experience about windows 8/windows 10 apps is that you cannot install apps from 3rd party sources. I've been away from Windows for awhile so I just want to clarify this - when you say "apps", are you talking about all end-user applications? Or only some sort of desktop widget type system?

JoachimS 11y ago
Applications. Apps seems to be the new word for applications.
- wbkang 11y ago
  Well, application programs? ;)
- Redoubts 11y ago
  Is it new? Weren't people taking about "Killer Apps" in the 80s?
Santosh83 11y ago
I think the poster is talking about programs using the new Microsoft application frameworks and provided through their app store. The older style "Win32" programs can be installed as they always were.
Solarsail 11y ago
(Slightly anecdotal answer, but...) Basically everything I used on Win7 works / can be installed just the same on Win10. .msi packages, Chocolatey packages, oddball Win32 apps I've found over the years, even portable programs that haven't been updated since XP. Only had one program mysteriously uninstalled itself when I made the move: IronRuby. I'm not sure if Windows Store apps can be sideloaded, but the only ones I have installed came installed by default. Easy to avoid. (I'm largely expanding on what Santosh83 said in a sibling post.)

douche 11y ago

If there was a really compelling reason to use the new app model over the old win32 desktop apps, I might care about this. For x32/x64 desktops and laptops, I don't see the point at all. Maybe if I had a Windows tablet, apps might be reasonable, but alas, I only have the now-discontinued and never-really-supported Surface RT.