4 ms·

I don't know a single french entrepeneur that doesn't think about leaving the country if its start up starts to become successful. And those who are successful

by bsaul 11y ago

I don't know a single french entrepeneur that doesn't think about leaving the country if its start up starts to become successful. And those who are successful all tell me either to not hire anyone ( work with contractors instead), or leave the country. Our culture is rotten to its core. Emmanuel macron is trying to change that, but he has no power at all, and every single president is scared to death of the risks he would take by going too far on the liberal side ( liberal candidate never make more than 10% ). French like big, safe, and conservative structures. They complain a lot about it, and then vote for the candidates that promise to maintain the status quo.

yodsanklai 11y ago
> I don't know a single french entrepeneur that doesn't think about leaving the country if its start up starts to become successful. In that case, why don't they start their companies abroad from the start? basically, they want to enjoy the security offered by their country in case of failure, but they don't want to pay their share in case of success. > French like big, safe, and conservative structures What's wrong with that? many elite graduates (not only in France) choose to work for big corporations that provide great benefits and little risk. It seems to be a rationale choice.
- catwell 11y ago
  > why don't they start their companies abroad from the start? Because it's easier to move a company to the US once it is funded and starts getting traction than to start it there. Also, technical talent is much cheaper in France than in the US, so building the product in France makes sense. A lot of French tech companies that "move to the US" actually keep a subsidiary with their development team in France. And we see tech companies such as Facebook and Google open offices in France to benefit from the talent pool. Young develpers are also probably more willing to try working at a startup instead of going for the safety of a big company because they do not have student loans to pay back... France has been good with seed-stage startups for years now (incubators, accelerators, seed VC / angels, tax cuts & subsidies...) The problem is the growth stage and beyond. The French market is too large to force companies to think global from the start and too small to scale for most. VC is much harder to find beyond series A, and moves like the French government preventing exits to foreign buyers scares foreign capital. But I am optimistic: France figured out the early stage just a few years ago, it will figure out later stages in time.
  - bitL 11y ago
    It's actually much easier to start a company in "tax-friendly" states of USA where you don't have to reside in order to start a company and don't have to pay taxes until you hit $1M revenue, like DL or NV. You can do it comfortably from within EU never setting your foot on the other side of Atlantic, via US Embassy and some US bank subsidiary.
- brohee 11y ago
  > In that case, why don't they start their companies abroad from the start? Well, possibly because they are leeches. It's pretty easy in France to work on your startup while collecting unemployement benefits (and no need to get fired to collect unemployement, there is a special case of voluntary quitting that permits you to collect benefits). The French state is a very good angel investor, the trouble starts when you need VC...
joshguthrie 11y ago
You should look up http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/07/save-secures-16-7-million-to-repair-your-smartphone-in-no-time/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/07/save-secures-16-7-million-t... 300 hires in a year is no small feat, isn't it?
- pofjer 11y ago
  Not exactly big either.
- bsaul 11y ago
  Well, can you provide me with another similar example in the last 5 years ? Maybe Save will be the next blablacar. We got one of them every 10 years, so who knows. It's insignificant when analysing the economy of the country, though it makes people hope things aren't as bad as they are. If you manage to find a great business, you can accomodate with cumbersome legislation. Either because you're making huge margins, or because you can afford to hire people that will find loopholes and do the paperwork.
aout 11y ago
Then meet me. I can also give you a list of french entrepreneurs that love Paris, France and hire a lot of people. Just look at Save, BlaBlaCar and Criteo. Also, remember that our social system is the biggest VC in Europe, allowing thousand of entrepreneurs to keep their "old job salaries" while working on their own companies. It seems to me you are just the typical example of "French Bashing" : always complaining and seeing the bad side of things.
- chrisseaton 11y ago
  So why aren't there any major new international tech players coming out of France? I've heard of BlaBlaCar, but none of the three listed are exactly heavyweights. I'm not anti-France and I'd ask the same question of my own country, the United Kingdom. If the social security allows you to start your own company, and if people are cheaper, and cost of living is lower, then why can't Europe produce a Google, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Microsoft?
  - seren 11y ago
    The social system is fine to bootstrap for a year because you'll have 60% of your old salary, "free" healthcare and education, but once you have to raise millions to grow quickly, it won't help. To produce a Google or Facebook, you need a flawless execution, a right timing and a boatload of money.
    - adventured 11y ago
      To build a Google or Facebook, you of course also have to get the US market. So you have to accelerate to massive scale across Europe, and then conquer the US market before a US company conquers the US and spreads across Europe. It's clearly a far more difficult proposition for the European company. The only alternative I can think of that might work, is for European companies to start with targeting the US market first (a challenging concept in its own right - to target a foreign market first).
  - marklgr 11y ago
    > why can't Europe produce a Google, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Microsoft? Market size, for one. Europe is not a country, and startups begin on a small national market, or at least national-scale funding.
steeve 11y ago
Actually, the majority of the ones I know (myself included at the time) are not thinking about leaving the country at all and/or don't care about contract issues. These kinds of anecdotal arguments won't get us nowhere. Hanging around at TheFamily's diners (for instance), you'll find the only reason they'd leave is because they want to raise with SV investors and/or penetrate the US market (which is hard to do from abroad).
- bsaul 11y ago
  Most start ups in thefamily incubators aren't big enough to think about full time hiring issues and legislation. The problem isn't for companies that are only composed of founders, or by companies that struck a gold mine. It's for the huge chunk that sits in between.
realusername 11y ago
On my case I don't know (I'm French), I currently work in the UK but I will definitely found a small company in a few years time with some online services, that's something I always wanted to do. Will I do it in France or in the UK ? The thing is, at least in the UK, if I buy a book, I can understand how the system works, in France I'm not sure even with the help of my parents I would be able to... It's just not only about taxes, I don't want to spend all my time filling some massive amount of paperwork nonsense. I still hope it's going to improve in the future but it seems it's just worse every year... :(
bengalister 11y ago
I am French leaving in France and totally agree and the culture being rotten. However I don't think all the blame should be put on politicians, unions are also their share of responsibility for the status-quo. Just a few days ago, all (employee) unions rejected the idea of having a more flexible employment contract. The worst part is that they just represent a tiny fraction of the French workers. To me it is the main reason why unemployment is so high in France, it is to hard to get rid of people. It can protect the employer sometimes. For instance, I have been approached by foreign companies but when I say that I have a 3-month notice (like many French employees), usually they are not interested anymore. As an entrepreneur, I'd also be scared to hire in France, to much of a hassle to fire someone.

by bsaul 11y ago

yodsanklai 11y ago

> I don't know a single french entrepeneur that doesn't think about leaving the country if its start up starts to become successful. In that case, why don't they start their companies abroad from the start? basically, they want to enjoy the security offered by their country in case of failure, but they don't want to pay their share in case of success. > French like big, safe, and conservative structures What's wrong with that? many elite graduates (not only in France) choose to work for big corporations that provide great benefits and little risk. It seems to be a rationale choice.

catwell 11y ago
> why don't they start their companies abroad from the start? Because it's easier to move a company to the US once it is funded and starts getting traction than to start it there. Also, technical talent is much cheaper in France than in the US, so building the product in France makes sense. A lot of French tech companies that "move to the US" actually keep a subsidiary with their development team in France. And we see tech companies such as Facebook and Google open offices in France to benefit from the talent pool. Young develpers are also probably more willing to try working at a startup instead of going for the safety of a big company because they do not have student loans to pay back... France has been good with seed-stage startups for years now (incubators, accelerators, seed VC / angels, tax cuts & subsidies...) The problem is the growth stage and beyond. The French market is too large to force companies to think global from the start and too small to scale for most. VC is much harder to find beyond series A, and moves like the French government preventing exits to foreign buyers scares foreign capital. But I am optimistic: France figured out the early stage just a few years ago, it will figure out later stages in time.
- bitL 11y ago
  It's actually much easier to start a company in "tax-friendly" states of USA where you don't have to reside in order to start a company and don't have to pay taxes until you hit $1M revenue, like DL or NV. You can do it comfortably from within EU never setting your foot on the other side of Atlantic, via US Embassy and some US bank subsidiary.
brohee 11y ago
> In that case, why don't they start their companies abroad from the start? Well, possibly because they are leeches. It's pretty easy in France to work on your startup while collecting unemployement benefits (and no need to get fired to collect unemployement, there is a special case of voluntary quitting that permits you to collect benefits). The French state is a very good angel investor, the trouble starts when you need VC...

joshguthrie 11y ago

You should look up http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/07/save-secures-16-7-million-to-repair-your-smartphone-in-no-time/ http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/07/save-secures-16-7-million-t... 300 hires in a year is no small feat, isn't it?

pofjer 11y ago
Not exactly big either.
bsaul 11y ago
Well, can you provide me with another similar example in the last 5 years ? Maybe Save will be the next blablacar. We got one of them every 10 years, so who knows. It's insignificant when analysing the economy of the country, though it makes people hope things aren't as bad as they are. If you manage to find a great business, you can accomodate with cumbersome legislation. Either because you're making huge margins, or because you can afford to hire people that will find loopholes and do the paperwork.

aout 11y ago

Then meet me. I can also give you a list of french entrepreneurs that love Paris, France and hire a lot of people. Just look at Save, BlaBlaCar and Criteo. Also, remember that our social system is the biggest VC in Europe, allowing thousand of entrepreneurs to keep their "old job salaries" while working on their own companies. It seems to me you are just the typical example of "French Bashing" : always complaining and seeing the bad side of things.

chrisseaton 11y ago
So why aren't there any major new international tech players coming out of France? I've heard of BlaBlaCar, but none of the three listed are exactly heavyweights. I'm not anti-France and I'd ask the same question of my own country, the United Kingdom. If the social security allows you to start your own company, and if people are cheaper, and cost of living is lower, then why can't Europe produce a Google, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Microsoft?
- seren 11y ago
  The social system is fine to bootstrap for a year because you'll have 60% of your old salary, "free" healthcare and education, but once you have to raise millions to grow quickly, it won't help. To produce a Google or Facebook, you need a flawless execution, a right timing and a boatload of money.
  - adventured 11y ago
    To build a Google or Facebook, you of course also have to get the US market. So you have to accelerate to massive scale across Europe, and then conquer the US market before a US company conquers the US and spreads across Europe. It's clearly a far more difficult proposition for the European company. The only alternative I can think of that might work, is for European companies to start with targeting the US market first (a challenging concept in its own right - to target a foreign market first).
- marklgr 11y ago
  > why can't Europe produce a Google, Facebook, Apple, Oracle, Microsoft? Market size, for one. Europe is not a country, and startups begin on a small national market, or at least national-scale funding.

steeve 11y ago

Actually, the majority of the ones I know (myself included at the time) are not thinking about leaving the country at all and/or don't care about contract issues. These kinds of anecdotal arguments won't get us nowhere. Hanging around at TheFamily's diners (for instance), you'll find the only reason they'd leave is because they want to raise with SV investors and/or penetrate the US market (which is hard to do from abroad).

bsaul 11y ago
Most start ups in thefamily incubators aren't big enough to think about full time hiring issues and legislation. The problem isn't for companies that are only composed of founders, or by companies that struck a gold mine. It's for the huge chunk that sits in between.

realusername 11y ago

On my case I don't know (I'm French), I currently work in the UK but I will definitely found a small company in a few years time with some online services, that's something I always wanted to do. Will I do it in France or in the UK ? The thing is, at least in the UK, if I buy a book, I can understand how the system works, in France I'm not sure even with the help of my parents I would be able to... It's just not only about taxes, I don't want to spend all my time filling some massive amount of paperwork nonsense. I still hope it's going to improve in the future but it seems it's just worse every year... :(

bengalister 11y ago

I am French leaving in France and totally agree and the culture being rotten. However I don't think all the blame should be put on politicians, unions are also their share of responsibility for the status-quo. Just a few days ago, all (employee) unions rejected the idea of having a more flexible employment contract. The worst part is that they just represent a tiny fraction of the French workers. To me it is the main reason why unemployment is so high in France, it is to hard to get rid of people. It can protect the employer sometimes. For instance, I have been approached by foreign companies but when I say that I have a 3-month notice (like many French employees), usually they are not interested anymore. As an entrepreneur, I'd also be scared to hire in France, to much of a hassle to fire someone.