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What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to
by meric 11y ago
What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help that cause?
Or are the ideals something America's white working class is leaving behind? Such as, belonging in religion with compassionate & authentic people; as people no longer believe in religion and the ones who still do are less compassionate and less authentic? Or, is it to be in an marriage with a partner who you can trust will stay with you through thick and thin, until death; as society thinks a marriage where one partner is unhappy should end in divorce, because society thinks that will be better for the children than to be in a unhappy marriage? Or is it to have children who you can trust will take care of you when you grow old; as society says children have the right to do whatever they choose to do and should not be burdened with the responsibility of taking care of their parents, because that's the government's obligation?
Are America's white working class ideals in front of them, or behind them?
I suggest when as a collective, they finally have clarity to see what they really do want, rather than what other people say they should be wanting, they will move towards their ideals, instead of away from them, and then things will get "better" all on their own.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- maxmax 11y ago>What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? You need to think much more basic than that: Success is having a savings account, a roof over your head in a safe stable location so the kids can stay in the same school, reliable transportation, and a job that provides enough income for all of the above.
- ams6110 11y agoI don't like defining "success" as some kind of bare minimum. Success is, at least, being better than average.
- sliverstorm 11y agoAgreed! Everyone should enjoy success, and success is being better than average.
- robgibbons 11y agoIf success is being better than average, then not everyone could enjoy it, or else success would just be the average.
- pyre 11y agoI think that @sliverstorm was conveying that idea via sarcasm.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- throwaway2048 11y ago>99% everyone on earth has more than the statistical mean amount of legs.
- digbyloftus 11y agoStatistical mean would seem like a poor choice in determining average in that case then.
- meric 11y agoI don't think people should build the expectation where they require "success" to be happy - that only precludes them from being happy when they're unable to become "successful", for a variety of reasons outside of their control, for example, a car accident. It matters not whether everyone can enjoy "success", it only matters that everyone feel they have had the opportunity to be "successful" and they had a solid go at it. With this perspective, "success" can be better than average, which is what it is a lot of the times - most lotto players thinks winning the lotto is "success", and winning the lotto is by definition to achieve a financial outcome that is above the average of all financial outcomes that can occur from playing the lotto.
- rl3 11y agoSuccess is whatever provides an individual with a consistent feeling of happiness and fulfillment in their life.
- wildengineer 11y agoThis is spot on. To the low skilled worker class this is all they want and they feel like they have to scrape to get it.
- aedron 11y agoYes! You would think that was obvious. As a European I am shocked and appalled at the jobs members of the American working class work. Here no one is allowed to work more than 38 hours per week or have less than five weeks of paid vacation, at a minimum hourly rate of about five dollars after tax. I am not comparing the two countries which are obviously very different in many ways, except to say that poor people in America are absolutely decrepit, which flies in the face of our image of America as a developed nation.
- cbr 11y ago> a minimum hourly rate of about five dollars after tax US federal minimum wage is $7.25 (and higher in many states), with income tax being functionally negative at low incomes. You could adjust downward by 10% to account for the five weeks of paid leave but that still gets you $6.50/hr.
- wfo 11y agoAlso account for the enormous cost of healthcare which is not paid for by taxes.
- kamaal 11y agoCut down on vacations, that video game console, that iPhone every year. Cut down on drinking, cigarettes. In fact cut away almost anything you don't 'need'(A.K.A living frugally) AND then Invest what you saved. Give it a few years. You are almost there...
- Spooky23 11y agoMost people yearn for purpose, family, and community. I think of my grandparents and how they lived their lives. My mom's dad was a NYC Sanitation worker, among other things. They lived frugally and eventually had a small summer cottage in the country. He had an 8th grade education, because his family in Ireland couldn't afford more. Yet he taught himself calculus up to the calc 2 level. That whole cohort of grandparents, grand uncles and aunts had a healthy disrespect for wealth. They had pride in their work, family & their church. My dad's dad was a very successful pub owner in Brookyn, who essentially lost it all when the city went to pot in the 70s and his clientele vaporized or went to Jersey. But he wasn't a bitter man, he was a guy who lit up a room and found joy in all sorts of things -- he was a bike messenger in his 60s, which to my young ears was probably the most important job on earth. Family, community and friends are values that I think about when I think of him -- a man who lived through a lot of tragedy beyond the scope of this little post. Misery and despair isn't a racial issue or even a poverty issue. We created a society where passive entertainment degraded the social fabric, (read "Bowling Alone") and now we're in the process of smashing ("disrupting") society and robbing people of their purpose. That pretty much fits to a T what has been done historically to many segments of black and Hispanic society. So why should we be surprised at the manifestation of misery and desperation from discarded white people?
- JackFr 11y agoThis is spot on. Sometimes I think the broader culture seems to be stripping the meaning out of life, convincing us that we are no more than hedonic production/consumption machines. The breakdown of the family (and not simply the household, but the larger extended family), the loss of non-state civic institutions and death of churches are either a cause or an effect, but its not clear which. And to me, there are not obvious solutions.
- unexistance 11y agoThe first step in solving this is to actually aware this is happening, then try to make others aware of the same... Then try to do things that are non-hedonistic and/or non-consumeristic (not sure if there's such a word)... Yeah, it's a LOT harder than it sounds, but that's the least we can do IMHO and keep your family and/or friends together, and always try to leave a good image in their eye
- CPLX 11y agoThat was a whole lot fluffy vagueness. What they want are stable jobs that don't require higher education. Quite a bit follows from that.
- meric 11y agoThat's backwards. Are the stable jobs don't require higher education what they want in and of itself, or purpose, love, acceptance and belonging you perceive they will be able to get with such a job? If they want what you think a job would give them, why not aim to make available what they actually want? Yes, these days it may be true without a job you lose purpose, love, acceptance and you lose belonging, due to the modern institution of divorce after 10 years or so, but what about society where a job is not required to receive purpose, love, acceptance and belonging?
- CPLX 11y ago> Yes, these days it may be true without a job you lose purpose, love, acceptance and you lose belonging Without a job you lose food, shelter, and medical care. Worry about those things first, look up Maslow, etc.
- meric 11y agoA 60 year old in lonely poverty because they just lost their job. The retirement fund they had with their former manufacturing employer is gone because the company became bankrupt. The person have 3 adult children who are working. They've all moved out long ago, they live in cities far away, and the person is afraid of bothering them. Is that the ideal situation? Will finding this man a job solve his problems?
- api 11y agoI'd say financial security sufficient to not live on debt, decent accommodations, health care, and dignity in old age. Applies just as much to everyone as it does to whites or the working class, and statistically the black working class has it worse.
- zardo 11y ago>I'd say financial security sufficient to not live on debt. I think most people have been convinced not to try to make that happen.
- api 11y agoFew try to make that happen except maybe people with shopping addictions. For over a decade now we've used debt as a substitute for wage increases.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- laotzu 11y agoWhat do you really want?