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There is a very strong, unmistakeable relationship between democracy and quality of life, by almost any measure. All of the most free, most prosperous, safest,

There is a very strong, unmistakeable relationship between democracy and quality of life, by almost any measure. All of the most free, most prosperous, safest, healthiest, best educated, etc. nations in the world are democracies. More importantly there is a moral requirement for democracy in some form: People have a right to self-determination. India seems to be doing relatively well, though it's hard to find anything to compare it to (Pakistan?). Democracy isn't sufficient by itself; democracies can be corrupt, poor, etc. Someone said long ago: democracies are the worst form of government - except for all the alternatives.

meric 11y ago
You're right democracies by themselves means nothing. I don't agree with a foreign country toppling an existing country's stable government for the purpose of extending "democracy" when in reality the reason is because democracies of small countries are easy to manipulated by foreign governments and corporations. Look at Ukraine, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, besides the last one I think the first three were more properous before foreign intervention, than after. Even Taiwan's democracy has only become more and more of a joke since KMT giving up emergency powers. Singapore on the other hand, is faring a lot better than all the countries I've mentioned in this comment.
- hackuser 11y ago
  > I don't agree with a foreign country toppling an existing country's stable government for the purpose of extending "democracy" I don't know how often it happens to stable governments, but generally I agree that destroying the country (through war) and imposing democracy - the essence of which is self-determination - is short-sighted and generally disasterous. > democracies of small countries are easy to manipulated by foreign governments and corporations Other forms of government are more easily controlled, speaking generally. In fact during the Cold War the U.S. replaced many democracies (Chile, Zaire/Congo, Iran, and others) with dictatorships because they were more easily controlled. In those three cases, leaders the U.S. disliked were elected, prompting the coups. > Ukraine I'm a little puzzled by this one. Clearly Ukraine's problems are due to Russia invading, conquering a major part of their country, and creating unending war in another part. > Taiwan's democracy has only become more and more of a joke since KMT giving up emergency powers. I don't understand what this refers to. Taiwan's democracy is thriving; they are very prosperous. They just had another successful election and power changed hands again. Their main problem is the communist government in mainland China which puts a threatening shadow over everything and denies the Taiwanese normal relations with most of the world.
  - meric 11y ago
    I'm not going to comment on the other points because either we agree or I can see how different perspective can see things in those ways, but with Ukraine, U.S. had spent 5 Billion dollars on civil activism, sponsored by various American oil companies, prior to the "coup" which ousted the elected, legitimate Russian-friendly Ukraine government. Without such surreptitious interference from the U.S., Ukraine would be in a more prosperous and stable situation today. Russia would not be able to say "You ousted a legitimate government that was protective towards the interests of Russians in Ukraine, that is why we're taking over Crimea because that is what the people want.". Here is the video direct from Victoria Nuland's mouth, speaking at a Chevron and ExxonMobil sponsored conference[1]. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=448 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=448 Ukraine, along with Libya and Iraq are prime examples to demonstrate when the Americans tell you your country should be liberated so it becomes democratic, you should probably plan to move out.
    - guard-of-terra 11y ago
      "Russian-friendly Ukraine government" Calling Yanukovich Russian-friendly is extremely naive. Russian officials saw him is Russian-friendly. He thought he is Russian-friendly. He wasn't Russian-friendly if you consider what he did and what friends do.
    - matthewbauer 11y ago
      Wasn't Yanukovych voted out? I don't think US was involved militarily or otherwise. EU powers could have been supporting pro-EU protests, however. Libya certainly had serious civil unrest before receiving US support. But it certainly has been going in the wrong direction since the fall of the Gaddafi government.
      - desdiv 11y ago
        The Ukrainian constitution requires a three-fourth majority vote to remove the president from office. The actual 2014 parliamentary vote only had 73% for his removal[0]. If you polled people in the west, at least 80% of them wouldn't be able to tell you that Yanukovych was removed illegally. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#constitutionality_of_the_removal_from_office https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#constitution...
nl 11y ago
There is a very strong, unmistakeable relationship between democracy and quality of life, by almost any measure What relationship is that exactly? I haven't run a regression or anything, but eyeballing lists seem to show a link between a high GDP/capita and quality of life. Singapore and Hong Kong are both pretty rich, have high quality of life but aren't very democratic. They generally rate higher for quality of life than more democratic but poorer countries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_D...
- adventured 11y ago
  US, Britain, Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada, Australia, Belgium, Italy, Japan, Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, Netherlands, Iceland, South Korea, New Zealand, Spain, Israel In no particular order, that's the vast majority of the richest, most well off, and highest GDP per capita countries on earth. Your list so far has Singapore and Hong Kong, now try to match my group - you can't get even remotely close. What could you add to your list? Qatar?
  - nl 11y ago
    It's not my list. In no particular order, that's the vast majority of the richest, most well off, and highest GDP per capita countries on earth. Your list so far has Singapore and Hong Kong, now try to match my group - you can't get even remotely close. I don't understand what you are trying to say. The countries you have listed include countries like Italy and Spain that rank well below the non-democratic countries I listed (Singapore and Hong Kong). Indeed, they score (0.876, 0.873) closer to Saudi Arabia (0.837) and UAE (0.835) than to countries at the top of the list (Norway: 0.944). The point is that I can find features that correspond to those lists better than "are democratic". For example, there's very good correlation between the Corruption Perceptions Index[1] and the list from the Human Development Index[2]. I think Democracy is great. But I also think facts are great, and the fact is that there do appear to be other ways to good outcomes. [1] http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_D...

meric 11y ago

You're right democracies by themselves means nothing. I don't agree with a foreign country toppling an existing country's stable government for the purpose of extending "democracy" when in reality the reason is because democracies of small countries are easy to manipulated by foreign governments and corporations. Look at Ukraine, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, besides the last one I think the first three were more properous before foreign intervention, than after. Even Taiwan's democracy has only become more and more of a joke since KMT giving up emergency powers. Singapore on the other hand, is faring a lot better than all the countries I've mentioned in this comment.

hackuser 11y ago
> I don't agree with a foreign country toppling an existing country's stable government for the purpose of extending "democracy" I don't know how often it happens to stable governments, but generally I agree that destroying the country (through war) and imposing democracy - the essence of which is self-determination - is short-sighted and generally disasterous. > democracies of small countries are easy to manipulated by foreign governments and corporations Other forms of government are more easily controlled, speaking generally. In fact during the Cold War the U.S. replaced many democracies (Chile, Zaire/Congo, Iran, and others) with dictatorships because they were more easily controlled. In those three cases, leaders the U.S. disliked were elected, prompting the coups. > Ukraine I'm a little puzzled by this one. Clearly Ukraine's problems are due to Russia invading, conquering a major part of their country, and creating unending war in another part. > Taiwan's democracy has only become more and more of a joke since KMT giving up emergency powers. I don't understand what this refers to. Taiwan's democracy is thriving; they are very prosperous. They just had another successful election and power changed hands again. Their main problem is the communist government in mainland China which puts a threatening shadow over everything and denies the Taiwanese normal relations with most of the world.
- meric 11y ago
  I'm not going to comment on the other points because either we agree or I can see how different perspective can see things in those ways, but with Ukraine, U.S. had spent 5 Billion dollars on civil activism, sponsored by various American oil companies, prior to the "coup" which ousted the elected, legitimate Russian-friendly Ukraine government. Without such surreptitious interference from the U.S., Ukraine would be in a more prosperous and stable situation today. Russia would not be able to say "You ousted a legitimate government that was protective towards the interests of Russians in Ukraine, that is why we're taking over Crimea because that is what the people want.". Here is the video direct from Victoria Nuland's mouth, speaking at a Chevron and ExxonMobil sponsored conference[1]. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=448 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y0y-JUsPTU#t=448 Ukraine, along with Libya and Iraq are prime examples to demonstrate when the Americans tell you your country should be liberated so it becomes democratic, you should probably plan to move out.
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    "Russian-friendly Ukraine government" Calling Yanukovich Russian-friendly is extremely naive. Russian officials saw him is Russian-friendly. He thought he is Russian-friendly. He wasn't Russian-friendly if you consider what he did and what friends do.
  - matthewbauer 11y ago
    Wasn't Yanukovych voted out? I don't think US was involved militarily or otherwise. EU powers could have been supporting pro-EU protests, however. Libya certainly had serious civil unrest before receiving US support. But it certainly has been going in the wrong direction since the fall of the Gaddafi government.
    - desdiv 11y ago
      The Ukrainian constitution requires a three-fourth majority vote to remove the president from office. The actual 2014 parliamentary vote only had 73% for his removal[0]. If you polled people in the west, at least 80% of them wouldn't be able to tell you that Yanukovych was removed illegally. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#constitutionality_of_the_removal_from_office https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#constitution...

nl 11y ago

There is a very strong, unmistakeable relationship between democracy and quality of life, by almost any measure What relationship is that exactly? I haven't run a regression or anything, but eyeballing lists seem to show a link between a high GDP/capita and quality of life. Singapore and Hong Kong are both pretty rich, have high quality of life but aren't very democratic. They generally rate higher for quality of life than more democratic but poorer countries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_D...

adventured 11y ago
US, Britain, Germany, France, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Canada, Australia, Belgium, Italy, Japan, Ireland, Switzerland, Austria, Netherlands, Iceland, South Korea, New Zealand, Spain, Israel In no particular order, that's the vast majority of the richest, most well off, and highest GDP per capita countries on earth. Your list so far has Singapore and Hong Kong, now try to match my group - you can't get even remotely close. What could you add to your list? Qatar?
- nl 11y ago
  It's not my list. In no particular order, that's the vast majority of the richest, most well off, and highest GDP per capita countries on earth. Your list so far has Singapore and Hong Kong, now try to match my group - you can't get even remotely close. I don't understand what you are trying to say. The countries you have listed include countries like Italy and Spain that rank well below the non-democratic countries I listed (Singapore and Hong Kong). Indeed, they score (0.876, 0.873) closer to Saudi Arabia (0.837) and UAE (0.835) than to countries at the top of the list (Norway: 0.944). The point is that I can find features that correspond to those lists better than "are democratic". For example, there's very good correlation between the Corruption Perceptions Index[1] and the list from the Human Development Index[2]. I think Democracy is great. But I also think facts are great, and the fact is that there do appear to be other ways to good outcomes. [1] http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_D...