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> he idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from

> he idea behind basic income is to remove day-to-day struggle from people's lives. If only they didn't have to worry where their next rent check is coming from, then potentially a huge groundswell of human capital could rise out of nowhere and carry us all into a new age. That is not at all what basic income is about. The point of basic income is not as a means to enable anything; it's a natural byproduct of and solution to a problem, the problem of ever increasing automation removing the need for human labor. There will come a time when exchanging labor for capital is no longer a workable system because the demand for human labor will have collapsed due to automation and robots doing everything. Thus without the ability to sell labor, most people no longer have capital with which to participate in an economy. That's what basic income is meant to solve. It's in no way meant to release human capital to foster in a new age, it's meant to allow humans to live in a new age where labor simply isn't necessary and thus labor based economies no longer exist.

vinceguidry 11y ago
> The point of basic income is not as a means to enable anything; it's a natural byproduct of and solution to a problem, the problem of ever increasing automation removing the need for human labor. I disagree. Humans tend to create new market segments in response to this problem. Service jobs, creative jobs, people are remarkably effective at finding ways to be productive. Basic income almost seems like a measure focused on finding ways for people to be unproductive. Do you seriously think automation means less human labor is needed? I can think of dozens of segments out there that could really use more human capital. Automation means less labor is needed to produce certain kinds of goods. We can always find things for people to do.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > I disagree. Humans tend to create new market segments in response to this problem. You can disagree if you like, but you're relying on the past to make your presumption that humans will just create more markets; the future of automation isn't like the past, future automation will include AI and is already doing so. AI changes the game, the future is not like the past, humans won't just do something else. Labor based economies must end at some point, there simply won't be enough demand for labor to keep an economy going. > Do you seriously think automation means less human labor is needed? If you don't, you're not paying attention to the world. > Automation means less labor is needed to produce certain kinds of goods. We can always find things for people to do. Absolutely wrong; the automation that is coming will leave little for people to do as it'll always be cheaper to have a machine do it and an intelligent machine will be able to do anything a human can. All goods, all services, not just "certain kinds" will be done by machines; your doctor will be a machine, your housekeeper, masseuse, waitress, all of them, robots. The idea that there's always going to be some way to sell your own labor is antiquated and wrong; basic income is meant as a solution to the collapse of labor markets that is coming from our continued increases in production via automation, and it is coming, and no, there won't be some other job you can do... machines will do all the jobs. Humans will leisure or find other means to feel productive but goods and services will not be distributed by means of a labor based economy. The labor based economies of the world are on their deathbeds; we're currently calling this structural unemployment due to globalization, it's all the same problem, the future isn't based on human labor or labor based economies.
  - vinceguidry 11y ago
    Haha. Well, let's cross that bridge when we get there.
    - gnaritas 11y ago
      That way lies pain, we have to cross that bridge as we get there which we currently are already on; hence the structural unemployment. Self driving cars are going to cause mass unemployment, we're already getting there.
      - vinceguidry 11y ago
        I'll believe it when I see it.
        gnaritas 11y ago
        Basic income is a hot topic because forward thinking people who see what's going on in the world right now already see it. You say lets cross that bridge when we get there; that's the point, we're there, you just aren't looking very hard.
        vinceguidry 11y ago
        It's a hot topic on HN and in a few policy circles. In the grand scheme of things, it's a really small issue, far behind, say, gun control or national security.
        gnaritas 11y ago
        The topic of this thread is that a "country" is experimenting with it, that's more than a little interest. It's a small issue in America, for now, for sure; that will change as unemployment creeps up with every new technology hitting the market, cars will start it.
- bsder 11y ago
  > Basic income almost seems like a measure focused on finding ways for people to be unproductive. Yet, "the dole" provided for J. K. Rowling as well as Noel Gallagher of Oasis before they became famous. I'm sure there are others. We, as a society, would nominally be worse off without these people.
- goldbrick 11y ago
  > people are remarkably effective at finding ways to be productive. That's not because human nature loves busy work. It's because today's economy requires you to be "productive", or starve.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  > Basic income almost seems like a measure focused on finding ways for people to be unproductive. You know, this is an old fashioned puritan work ethic thing as well; people don't need to be productive, they need to be happy and if they can be happy without "having" to work due to technological advancement that makes work a moot point, why shouldn't they be? "Productivity" is something we can get more and more from machines and eventually enough of it that the vast bulk of society can move beyond work and enjoy life. Work that isn't required is called a hobby, and our ultimate goal should be to let our tech replace our need to work; it'd be great if everyone just had hobbies they enjoyed and found fulfilling.
phillc73 11y ago
Perhaps it's a step along the road to a post-scarcity economy.
- gnaritas 11y ago
  That's exactly what it is.
rorykoehler 11y ago
You're both right. I don't see how your point is exclusive of the comment you referenced.

vinceguidry 11y ago

> The point of basic income is not as a means to enable anything; it's a natural byproduct of and solution to a problem, the problem of ever increasing automation removing the need for human labor. I disagree. Humans tend to create new market segments in response to this problem. Service jobs, creative jobs, people are remarkably effective at finding ways to be productive. Basic income almost seems like a measure focused on finding ways for people to be unproductive. Do you seriously think automation means less human labor is needed? I can think of dozens of segments out there that could really use more human capital. Automation means less labor is needed to produce certain kinds of goods. We can always find things for people to do.

gnaritas 11y ago
> I disagree. Humans tend to create new market segments in response to this problem. You can disagree if you like, but you're relying on the past to make your presumption that humans will just create more markets; the future of automation isn't like the past, future automation will include AI and is already doing so. AI changes the game, the future is not like the past, humans won't just do something else. Labor based economies must end at some point, there simply won't be enough demand for labor to keep an economy going. > Do you seriously think automation means less human labor is needed? If you don't, you're not paying attention to the world. > Automation means less labor is needed to produce certain kinds of goods. We can always find things for people to do. Absolutely wrong; the automation that is coming will leave little for people to do as it'll always be cheaper to have a machine do it and an intelligent machine will be able to do anything a human can. All goods, all services, not just "certain kinds" will be done by machines; your doctor will be a machine, your housekeeper, masseuse, waitress, all of them, robots. The idea that there's always going to be some way to sell your own labor is antiquated and wrong; basic income is meant as a solution to the collapse of labor markets that is coming from our continued increases in production via automation, and it is coming, and no, there won't be some other job you can do... machines will do all the jobs. Humans will leisure or find other means to feel productive but goods and services will not be distributed by means of a labor based economy. The labor based economies of the world are on their deathbeds; we're currently calling this structural unemployment due to globalization, it's all the same problem, the future isn't based on human labor or labor based economies.
- vinceguidry 11y ago
  Haha. Well, let's cross that bridge when we get there.
  - gnaritas 11y ago
    That way lies pain, we have to cross that bridge as we get there which we currently are already on; hence the structural unemployment. Self driving cars are going to cause mass unemployment, we're already getting there.
    - vinceguidry 11y ago
      I'll believe it when I see it.
      - gnaritas 11y ago
        Basic income is a hot topic because forward thinking people who see what's going on in the world right now already see it. You say lets cross that bridge when we get there; that's the point, we're there, you just aren't looking very hard.
        vinceguidry 11y ago
        It's a hot topic on HN and in a few policy circles. In the grand scheme of things, it's a really small issue, far behind, say, gun control or national security.
        gnaritas 11y ago
        The topic of this thread is that a "country" is experimenting with it, that's more than a little interest. It's a small issue in America, for now, for sure; that will change as unemployment creeps up with every new technology hitting the market, cars will start it.
bsder 11y ago
> Basic income almost seems like a measure focused on finding ways for people to be unproductive. Yet, "the dole" provided for J. K. Rowling as well as Noel Gallagher of Oasis before they became famous. I'm sure there are others. We, as a society, would nominally be worse off without these people.
goldbrick 11y ago
> people are remarkably effective at finding ways to be productive. That's not because human nature loves busy work. It's because today's economy requires you to be "productive", or starve.
gnaritas 11y ago
> Basic income almost seems like a measure focused on finding ways for people to be unproductive. You know, this is an old fashioned puritan work ethic thing as well; people don't need to be productive, they need to be happy and if they can be happy without "having" to work due to technological advancement that makes work a moot point, why shouldn't they be? "Productivity" is something we can get more and more from machines and eventually enough of it that the vast bulk of society can move beyond work and enjoy life. Work that isn't required is called a hobby, and our ultimate goal should be to let our tech replace our need to work; it'd be great if everyone just had hobbies they enjoyed and found fulfilling.

phillc73 11y ago

Perhaps it's a step along the road to a post-scarcity economy.

gnaritas 11y ago
That's exactly what it is.

rorykoehler 11y ago

You're both right. I don't see how your point is exclusive of the comment you referenced.