9 ms·

> MS really changed its approach to software Their open-source friendliness has unfortunately coincided with a decline of their respect for user privacy and ch

by jrcii 11y ago

> MS really changed its approach to software Their open-source friendliness has unfortunately coincided with a decline of their respect for user privacy and choice (Windows 10). I find the "New Microsoft" bittersweet.

DoubleMalt 11y ago
While this is true, only open source makes choice and privacy even possible. They are obviously trying to reinvent themselves partly in the image of Google, whose motto "Don't be evil" also sounds very hollow nowadays. But I shudder when I think of a world where Google is built upon closed software. [To clarify: I know that Google does not open most of their software. However, with their reliance on open source software they were a big driver for the legitimacy of the movement]
- Arkanosis 11y ago
  Well, actually, most of the issues I've with Google are related with some of their closed software. Which makes me agree very hard with your first point, btw.
wslh 11y ago
I don't really like the user privacy approach on Windows 10 but I wonder if they will change that approach soon or someone else (third party) will came up with a tool to automatically handle this issue.
- somebehemoth 11y ago
  I found this tool in another HN discussion about this Win 10 privacy. I don't know if this tool works to solve the entire problem: https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking/ https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking/. If anyone can vouch for this tool's effectiveness I would like to know.
  - XzetaU8 11y ago
    http://www.ghacks.net/2015/08/14/comparison-of-windows-10-privacy-tools/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/08/14/comparison-of-windows-10-pr...
frigg 11y ago
>Their open-source friendliness has unfortunately coincided with a decline of their respect for user privacy and choice (Windows 10). As far as I know they give you the option to opt out of everything. Are they bad even for asking?
- magicalist 11y ago
  > As far as I know they give you the option to opt out of everything No, they don't, and two seconds of searching will confirm that for you. All many of us are asking is to be able to opt out of it.
- McGlockenshire 11y ago
  > As far as I know they give you the option to opt out of everything The thing we now know as "telemetry" used to be opt-in, and they hide the opt-out control during initial setup behind a thing that is a link but doesn't look like one. It can still be turned off after installation in the same exact way as the previous versions of Windows (enter "experience" in the Start menu search box), but most won't know that this control exists. All the rest of the things causing people to freak out about privacy are related to Cortana, and the process for turning that feature set on is in-your-face opt-in, where it's clear that you're authorizing data sharing with them.
  - magicalist 11y ago
    > It can still be turned off after installation Unless you're running Enterprise or Education (both not available to single users), this is not true.
    - McGlockenshire 11y ago
      Citation, please? I'd imagine it'd be killable via group policy in those cases, wouldn't it?
- tareqak 11y ago
  You cannot fully opt out of the tracking Microsoft does in Windows 10. The lowest selection I can make is "Basic".
Someone1234 11y ago
The Windows 10 privacy thing is completely overblown. Most of the privacy settings that people are most worried about is tied into Cortana or more specifically what you allow Cortana to do on your behalf. You can simply choose not to use Cortana or to disable it entirely. Google Now & Siri support the same functionality but ironically don't give you the settings to disable it, so nobody bats an eyelid. Beyond that you only really have so called "basic telemetry." Which tells them when you launch a Windows 10 "app" and some basic computer information. But even without that setting/ability the apps themselves could conduct the same reporting (via direct HTTP requests), the only reason it is even a setting is because Microsoft unified it to make developers lives easier and to better aggregate the information their side. Are people legitimately concerned that when they launch the XBox music app that Microsoft knows you did? Even without the Windows telemetry they could just look at their own server logs since the XBox Music app utilises so many web resources (e.g. images). The same is true with any developer, any app, on any platform. Ultimately the whole thing is a bunch of noise and no substance. Nobody can actually point to exactly what specific information Microsoft is even taking, and have even less data yet still to back up any claims.
- Karunamon 11y ago
  The Windows 10 privacy thing is completely overblown. Not when you consider the fact that they're being so damned sneaky about it. First, the idea that you have to run an enterprise OS to turn off (not "set to basic", but turn OFF) the tracking says volumes. Just by having it default would meet the goals of collecting development/troubleshooting/debugging info since most people won't change the defaults. Next up, there's the fact that Microsoft has gone out of their way to make it hard to turn off anyways by hard coding addresses and ignoring registry keys. The only way for a home user to stop all tracking is to firewall an ever changing list of IPs. Third, you do not know what they are tracking or not tracking. The communications are secure and the application closed source. It's more the attitude these actions belie than the actions themselves, IMO. It's a very quiet, but distinct disdain for the user. "Yes, you paid $100 for our OS, but you didn't think you actually controlled it, did you?" So... minus four in a short amount of time. Would anyone care to explain how I'm incorrect about any of this?
- 11y ago
magicalist 11y ago
> I find the "New Microsoft" bittersweet. Yes, a much more accurate description than the GP's would be that the "new Microsoft" isn't letting single executive edicts set corporate policy for many things, such as how all teams should interact with the open source communities, instead letting teams themselves make that decision and then supporting them in doing so. The natural result is that many developers within Microsoft come from or have extensive experience with open source and so will embrace it when given the opportunity. It feels like less a change in philosophy of "open source is our future" and more of one that good decisions can come from the bottom up (and a little bit of "yeah, the whole 'linux is a cancer' thing was really stupid").
- melted 11y ago
  I think it's not so much "open source is our future" as it is "if you can't beat them, join them". I'm sure there are plenty of folks at Microsoft who realize that sticking with Windows in Cloud puts them at a competitive disadvantage vs eg Amazon or Google. There are things that _have to_ use Windows (Azure AD, MS SQL, Exchange, Sharepoint), but everything else is only harmed by it. So the litmus test is going to be whether they actually move their major backend systems to Linux in the coming 2-3 years. If they do not, all these Linux ports will remain second class citizens compared to Windows versions, with lower performance, fewer features, and more bugs. Which is probably why Microsoft is releasing them in the first place: if you want the real deal, come to papa.
  - KirinDave 11y ago
    It's sort of comical you say Azures is a competitive disadvantage. Azure and GCE are in almost every way superior to AWS in terms of everything but established marketshare. If I were going back to step 0 with a startup today, I would not repeat my decisions to stick with AWS. Their stack is slow-moving and frustrating. The VPC rollout has been a slow motion car crash that is only righting itself in the past 3 months. Meanwhile Azure has amazing management tools and GCE has got well-supported containerization as its primary product interface. Both provide competitive rates and subsidies for small tech business, as well.
api 11y ago
If you're concerned about MS privacy, you should be absolutely outraged about Google, Facebook, etc. You also shouldn't consider Apple to be that different. The Win10 privacy thing isn't much different from what Apple now does by default, and all of it can be turned off. While it does gather data, it does so in the course of supporting functions that most users want like Cortana and smart search. Apple is also full of phone home stuff that must be deliberately turned off if you don't want it. The fact is that the market has clearly indicated (1) a preference for free stuff that is supported by 'ecosystems' and indirect monetization, and (2) a willingness to trade privacy for convenience and features. You can't blame companies for complying with what the market clearly wants as indicated by consumer buying behavior. If people cared about security and privacy more than features and UX, they would vote with their dollars.
- z3t4 11y ago
  You are right. A few years ago, googleupdate.exe would scan all your hard drives, it would be interesting to know what they did with all that data. That's why I spent several hundred dollars on a copy of Windows. But can you imagine my reaction when Microsoft secretly installed tracking software to collect my personal data!? Some times when I open up a new app, copy something into clipboard, or search on the web, there will be outgoing connections to akamai / microsoft servers. I'm currently migrating to Linux because of this.
lewisl9029 11y ago
I'm just going to copy my post word for word from the last time I commented on the Windows 10 privacy issue: I still can't imagine why Microsoft would think it's worth the bad publicity to not offer the option to disable telemetry, considering how few people tend to deviate from defaults in general, and how tiny a percentage of their users even care about privacy to begin with (evident from the commercial success of Windows 10). They've been getting so much goodwill for all the other great things they've been doing lately. It just seems downright foolish to squander all of that for a few extra basis points in their telemetry data from those rare few users who care about privacy but are forced to use Windows 10 anyways for whatever reason. Those who care about privacy but do have a choice in OS will simply avoid Windows 10 altogether because of the mandatory telemetry, which is telemetry data that they wouldn't be getting anyways. A certain percentage of these people could be Windows 10 users if it weren't for the mandatory telemetry. Would they really rather have people using other OSes, than having them use Windows 10 without giving them telemetry data? So many aspects of their position on this issue seems completely irrational to me.
hackuser 11y ago
> Their open-source friendliness has unfortunately coincided with a decline of their respect for user privacy and choice (Windows 10). I find the "New Microsoft" bittersweet. Similar to Google, Facebook, Twitter and others: They support open source, but not end-user control or privacy. EDIT: Not a complaint, but it's very interesting that this was modded down. It's a simple, factual statement that I doubt the companies themselves would disagree with (though the truth is much more detailed).
KirinDave 11y ago
This complaint is so frustrating since odds are many people are reading this from Apple laptops running OSX that does at least as much telemetry. Run Little Snitch and launch apps, type in spotlight, visit a store... hell you'll get regular uptime telemetry dumps even if you don't do anything. And odds are there is an iPhone or Android phone in your pocket, its software metaphorically top heavy with instrumentation to track your ever engagement pattern with laser-like precision. But Microsoft takes the brunt of this complaint because they're open, honest, and give you a scale of opt-outs. But mysteriously no one blames Ubuntu for doing the exact same things because... freedom? Meanwhile, Microsoft has opened their entire core technology stack to outside scrutiny, adopted a radically user-centric approach to OS design, and taken a very risky and user-and-dev-friendly strategy regarding how apps are shipped and created. I find this ceaseless double standard less than sweet, and indeed very much about bitterness.
userbinator 11y ago
The optimistic view is to wait for them to open-source Windows 10, so people can more easily figure out how to get the OS to behave the way they want.

by jrcii 11y ago

DoubleMalt 11y ago

While this is true, only open source makes choice and privacy even possible. They are obviously trying to reinvent themselves partly in the image of Google, whose motto "Don't be evil" also sounds very hollow nowadays. But I shudder when I think of a world where Google is built upon closed software. [To clarify: I know that Google does not open most of their software. However, with their reliance on open source software they were a big driver for the legitimacy of the movement]

Arkanosis 11y ago
Well, actually, most of the issues I've with Google are related with some of their closed software. Which makes me agree very hard with your first point, btw.

wslh 11y ago

I don't really like the user privacy approach on Windows 10 but I wonder if they will change that approach soon or someone else (third party) will came up with a tool to automatically handle this issue.

somebehemoth 11y ago
I found this tool in another HN discussion about this Win 10 privacy. I don't know if this tool works to solve the entire problem: https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking/ https://github.com/10se1ucgo/DisableWinTracking/. If anyone can vouch for this tool's effectiveness I would like to know.
- XzetaU8 11y ago
  http://www.ghacks.net/2015/08/14/comparison-of-windows-10-privacy-tools/ http://www.ghacks.net/2015/08/14/comparison-of-windows-10-pr...

frigg 11y ago

>Their open-source friendliness has unfortunately coincided with a decline of their respect for user privacy and choice (Windows 10). As far as I know they give you the option to opt out of everything. Are they bad even for asking?

magicalist 11y ago
> As far as I know they give you the option to opt out of everything No, they don't, and two seconds of searching will confirm that for you. All many of us are asking is to be able to opt out of it.
McGlockenshire 11y ago
> As far as I know they give you the option to opt out of everything The thing we now know as "telemetry" used to be opt-in, and they hide the opt-out control during initial setup behind a thing that is a link but doesn't look like one. It can still be turned off after installation in the same exact way as the previous versions of Windows (enter "experience" in the Start menu search box), but most won't know that this control exists. All the rest of the things causing people to freak out about privacy are related to Cortana, and the process for turning that feature set on is in-your-face opt-in, where it's clear that you're authorizing data sharing with them.
- magicalist 11y ago
  > It can still be turned off after installation Unless you're running Enterprise or Education (both not available to single users), this is not true.
  - McGlockenshire 11y ago
    Citation, please? I'd imagine it'd be killable via group policy in those cases, wouldn't it?
tareqak 11y ago
You cannot fully opt out of the tracking Microsoft does in Windows 10. The lowest selection I can make is "Basic".

Someone1234 11y ago

The Windows 10 privacy thing is completely overblown. Most of the privacy settings that people are most worried about is tied into Cortana or more specifically what you allow Cortana to do on your behalf. You can simply choose not to use Cortana or to disable it entirely. Google Now & Siri support the same functionality but ironically don't give you the settings to disable it, so nobody bats an eyelid. Beyond that you only really have so called "basic telemetry." Which tells them when you launch a Windows 10 "app" and some basic computer information. But even without that setting/ability the apps themselves could conduct the same reporting (via direct HTTP requests), the only reason it is even a setting is because Microsoft unified it to make developers lives easier and to better aggregate the information their side. Are people legitimately concerned that when they launch the XBox music app that Microsoft knows you did? Even without the Windows telemetry they could just look at their own server logs since the XBox Music app utilises so many web resources (e.g. images). The same is true with any developer, any app, on any platform. Ultimately the whole thing is a bunch of noise and no substance. Nobody can actually point to exactly what specific information Microsoft is even taking, and have even less data yet still to back up any claims.

Karunamon 11y ago
The Windows 10 privacy thing is completely overblown. Not when you consider the fact that they're being so damned sneaky about it. First, the idea that you have to run an enterprise OS to turn off (not "set to basic", but turn OFF) the tracking says volumes. Just by having it default would meet the goals of collecting development/troubleshooting/debugging info since most people won't change the defaults. Next up, there's the fact that Microsoft has gone out of their way to make it hard to turn off anyways by hard coding addresses and ignoring registry keys. The only way for a home user to stop all tracking is to firewall an ever changing list of IPs. Third, you do not know what they are tracking or not tracking. The communications are secure and the application closed source. It's more the attitude these actions belie than the actions themselves, IMO. It's a very quiet, but distinct disdain for the user. "Yes, you paid $100 for our OS, but you didn't think you actually controlled it, did you?" So... minus four in a short amount of time. Would anyone care to explain how I'm incorrect about any of this?
11y ago

magicalist 11y ago

> I find the "New Microsoft" bittersweet. Yes, a much more accurate description than the GP's would be that the "new Microsoft" isn't letting single executive edicts set corporate policy for many things, such as how all teams should interact with the open source communities, instead letting teams themselves make that decision and then supporting them in doing so. The natural result is that many developers within Microsoft come from or have extensive experience with open source and so will embrace it when given the opportunity. It feels like less a change in philosophy of "open source is our future" and more of one that good decisions can come from the bottom up (and a little bit of "yeah, the whole 'linux is a cancer' thing was really stupid").

melted 11y ago
I think it's not so much "open source is our future" as it is "if you can't beat them, join them". I'm sure there are plenty of folks at Microsoft who realize that sticking with Windows in Cloud puts them at a competitive disadvantage vs eg Amazon or Google. There are things that _have to_ use Windows (Azure AD, MS SQL, Exchange, Sharepoint), but everything else is only harmed by it. So the litmus test is going to be whether they actually move their major backend systems to Linux in the coming 2-3 years. If they do not, all these Linux ports will remain second class citizens compared to Windows versions, with lower performance, fewer features, and more bugs. Which is probably why Microsoft is releasing them in the first place: if you want the real deal, come to papa.
- KirinDave 11y ago
  It's sort of comical you say Azures is a competitive disadvantage. Azure and GCE are in almost every way superior to AWS in terms of everything but established marketshare. If I were going back to step 0 with a startup today, I would not repeat my decisions to stick with AWS. Their stack is slow-moving and frustrating. The VPC rollout has been a slow motion car crash that is only righting itself in the past 3 months. Meanwhile Azure has amazing management tools and GCE has got well-supported containerization as its primary product interface. Both provide competitive rates and subsidies for small tech business, as well.

api 11y ago

If you're concerned about MS privacy, you should be absolutely outraged about Google, Facebook, etc. You also shouldn't consider Apple to be that different. The Win10 privacy thing isn't much different from what Apple now does by default, and all of it can be turned off. While it does gather data, it does so in the course of supporting functions that most users want like Cortana and smart search. Apple is also full of phone home stuff that must be deliberately turned off if you don't want it. The fact is that the market has clearly indicated (1) a preference for free stuff that is supported by 'ecosystems' and indirect monetization, and (2) a willingness to trade privacy for convenience and features. You can't blame companies for complying with what the market clearly wants as indicated by consumer buying behavior. If people cared about security and privacy more than features and UX, they would vote with their dollars.

z3t4 11y ago
You are right. A few years ago, googleupdate.exe would scan all your hard drives, it would be interesting to know what they did with all that data. That's why I spent several hundred dollars on a copy of Windows. But can you imagine my reaction when Microsoft secretly installed tracking software to collect my personal data!? Some times when I open up a new app, copy something into clipboard, or search on the web, there will be outgoing connections to akamai / microsoft servers. I'm currently migrating to Linux because of this.

lewisl9029 11y ago

I'm just going to copy my post word for word from the last time I commented on the Windows 10 privacy issue: I still can't imagine why Microsoft would think it's worth the bad publicity to not offer the option to disable telemetry, considering how few people tend to deviate from defaults in general, and how tiny a percentage of their users even care about privacy to begin with (evident from the commercial success of Windows 10). They've been getting so much goodwill for all the other great things they've been doing lately. It just seems downright foolish to squander all of that for a few extra basis points in their telemetry data from those rare few users who care about privacy but are forced to use Windows 10 anyways for whatever reason. Those who care about privacy but do have a choice in OS will simply avoid Windows 10 altogether because of the mandatory telemetry, which is telemetry data that they wouldn't be getting anyways. A certain percentage of these people could be Windows 10 users if it weren't for the mandatory telemetry. Would they really rather have people using other OSes, than having them use Windows 10 without giving them telemetry data? So many aspects of their position on this issue seems completely irrational to me.

hackuser 11y ago

> Their open-source friendliness has unfortunately coincided with a decline of their respect for user privacy and choice (Windows 10). I find the "New Microsoft" bittersweet. Similar to Google, Facebook, Twitter and others: They support open source, but not end-user control or privacy. EDIT: Not a complaint, but it's very interesting that this was modded down. It's a simple, factual statement that I doubt the companies themselves would disagree with (though the truth is much more detailed).

KirinDave 11y ago

This complaint is so frustrating since odds are many people are reading this from Apple laptops running OSX that does at least as much telemetry. Run Little Snitch and launch apps, type in spotlight, visit a store... hell you'll get regular uptime telemetry dumps even if you don't do anything. And odds are there is an iPhone or Android phone in your pocket, its software metaphorically top heavy with instrumentation to track your ever engagement pattern with laser-like precision. But Microsoft takes the brunt of this complaint because they're open, honest, and give you a scale of opt-outs. But mysteriously no one blames Ubuntu for doing the exact same things because... freedom? Meanwhile, Microsoft has opened their entire core technology stack to outside scrutiny, adopted a radically user-centric approach to OS design, and taken a very risky and user-and-dev-friendly strategy regarding how apps are shipped and created. I find this ceaseless double standard less than sweet, and indeed very much about bitterness.

userbinator 11y ago

The optimistic view is to wait for them to open-source Windows 10, so people can more easily figure out how to get the OS to behave the way they want.