5 ms·

When China consume too many ressources she is draining the world, but if consumption weakens she is "rattling" the world.

by gbog 11y ago

catnaroek 11y ago
Haters gonna hate. Given the West's history with China, they're not in a position to preach about anything.
- tim333 11y ago
  Not sure it's hating or preaching. It just that a lot of businesses supplying China will make losses or go bust if they stop buying. More of an oh shit, what do we do now moment.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  Haters gonna hate, wumaos gonna wumao. There is plenty of bias all around, but right now I want economic news on China that isn't propaganda, what other choices do we have?
  - catnaroek 11y ago
    That accusation is uncalled for. I'm not a Chinese person, I've never set foot on China, and the most contact I've ever had with Chinese people other than my grandparents was on IRC and other online avenues of discussion, but I happen to have, um, a little bit of historical awareness.
    - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
      I didn't accuse you have being a wumao, I just said "haters gonna hate" like "wumaos gonna wumao". These are interesting times, we need the critical articles to get us through it, not the wumao or chinadaily "all is sunshine" variety.
  - gbog 11y ago
    Economic news is propaganda anyways, just don't trust that. Information is power, scepticism is the defense of the weaks (us) against this power.
woah 11y ago
Why are you taking offense at a description of market conditions?
sharetea 11y ago
Look at it this way: Enron (China) engaged in accounting fraud (lied about debt and gdp) in order to obtain massive investment (massive dollar denominated debt), and spent all the money on parties and drugs (empty cities and roads to nowhere. steel factories that are kept open despite losing money. league of legend game studio and AMC. all the north korea's crude supply) and pretty soon will declare bankruptcy (yuan devaluation and chinese company bankruptcies), to the detriment of investors (European companies, US funds, people everywhere). Will anyone go to jail? (China won't be able to get any FDI for a a long time. Economic depression)...and do investors have the right to be angry (sure)
- sdm 11y ago
  I'm sorry, but your analogy is pretty far off the mark. > China won't be able to get any FDI for a a long time. Economic depression China has been a net exporter of FDI for some time; it doesn't really need more FDI especially given how far the economic transition has progressed. The party was been expressly working to remove the dependency on FDI for some time and it's paid off. None of this implies economic depression in any way. > yuan devaluation and chinese company bankruptcies The Yuan has been rising. Yes, the USD has been rising faster but against most currencies the Yuan is up and has been very strong. I'm curious which bankruptcies you're referring to. There haven't been any more bankruptcies here than you'd expect for an economy of this size. > European companies, US funds, people everywhere Any evidence of this? China is always going to put social stability first. Anyone dealing in China knows this. The ground rules are well established. The same claim could easily be made against the US and it's restrictions, through it's tax laws, on retail investors holding foreign financial instruments. You always play by the rules of the country you're in; no country on the planet is an open free market. > empty cities and roads to nowhere. This is a classic argument that don't understand China's scale or pay attention the five year plans and policy documents issued by the two sessions. China is in the process of massive urbanization. Those cities need to be built ahead of time. It's a necessary consequence of the scale involved. And as we've seen, the empty cities of 5 years ago have filled up. > league of legend game studio and AMC. I'm not sure what private companies investing outside of China has to do with this. These are not connected to the Chinese government any more than an US private company buying a foreign company is. Actually, it's likely even less connected given how much more the US government facilitates American companies purchasing foreign assists. Again, China has been a next exporter of investment for some time. China is a developing nation and it doesn't make much sense to compare it to developed nations. It has a long way to go; the party's own goal is to start approaching developed nation status in the 2050s. Investing in developing nations always entails more risk and more uncertainty. Beside the literal inaccuracy, your Enron analogy is largely not apt because it's trying to situate it in a developed environment. That said, compared to most developing nations China is a pretty well run one.
SystemOut 11y ago
I sense that you think this is derogatory towards China when it is not. Or at least I don't read it that way. It reads to me as though it shows how connected our world is and how when a large consumer falters it affects all of its suppliers, especially when those suppliers overbuilt capacity. If anything it shows how much of an impact China has on the world due to its sheer size.
- gbog 11y ago
  Well, to me it shows one main point: China and most other countries, and actually anyone or any entity, will do better not listening to the "advices" and "suggestions" from the newspapers. This reminds me of "The Miller, His Son, and the Ass": just do what you have to do without worrying about what people say or think. But about China there is a special case: Some rampant China-bashing from the US who can't stand someone else getting closer and closer. So we need to be careful, xxx-bashing is bad, except if xxx == self.
danmaz74 11y ago
If China consumes too many resources, other consuming countries get worried and say: "she is draining the world". If China stops growing its consumption of resources, the resources producing countries (and those who invested there) get worried and say: "she is rattling the world". In other words, it's good or bad depending on who you are.
pizza234 11y ago
Environment and economy are related but separate realities. The context of the article is economy. In a large perspective of course excessive consumption is a reasonable worry, but it's important to understand that by making a statement about ecology (draining...), we're reasoning within a different context. This is for example, the same reason why stating that "Bitcoin wastes electricity" is nothing more than a gimmick.

When China consume too many ressources she is draining the world, but if consumption weakens she is "rattling" the world.

by gbog 11y ago

When China consume too many ressources she is draining the world, but if consumption weakens she is "rattling" the world.

catnaroek 11y ago

Haters gonna hate. Given the West's history with China, they're not in a position to preach about anything.

tim333 11y ago
Not sure it's hating or preaching. It just that a lot of businesses supplying China will make losses or go bust if they stop buying. More of an oh shit, what do we do now moment.
seanmcdirmid 11y ago
Haters gonna hate, wumaos gonna wumao. There is plenty of bias all around, but right now I want economic news on China that isn't propaganda, what other choices do we have?
- catnaroek 11y ago
  That accusation is uncalled for. I'm not a Chinese person, I've never set foot on China, and the most contact I've ever had with Chinese people other than my grandparents was on IRC and other online avenues of discussion, but I happen to have, um, a little bit of historical awareness.
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    I didn't accuse you have being a wumao, I just said "haters gonna hate" like "wumaos gonna wumao". These are interesting times, we need the critical articles to get us through it, not the wumao or chinadaily "all is sunshine" variety.
- gbog 11y ago
  Economic news is propaganda anyways, just don't trust that. Information is power, scepticism is the defense of the weaks (us) against this power.

woah 11y ago

Why are you taking offense at a description of market conditions?

sharetea 11y ago

Look at it this way: Enron (China) engaged in accounting fraud (lied about debt and gdp) in order to obtain massive investment (massive dollar denominated debt), and spent all the money on parties and drugs (empty cities and roads to nowhere. steel factories that are kept open despite losing money. league of legend game studio and AMC. all the north korea's crude supply) and pretty soon will declare bankruptcy (yuan devaluation and chinese company bankruptcies), to the detriment of investors (European companies, US funds, people everywhere). Will anyone go to jail? (China won't be able to get any FDI for a a long time. Economic depression)...and do investors have the right to be angry (sure)

sdm 11y ago
I'm sorry, but your analogy is pretty far off the mark. > China won't be able to get any FDI for a a long time. Economic depression China has been a net exporter of FDI for some time; it doesn't really need more FDI especially given how far the economic transition has progressed. The party was been expressly working to remove the dependency on FDI for some time and it's paid off. None of this implies economic depression in any way. > yuan devaluation and chinese company bankruptcies The Yuan has been rising. Yes, the USD has been rising faster but against most currencies the Yuan is up and has been very strong. I'm curious which bankruptcies you're referring to. There haven't been any more bankruptcies here than you'd expect for an economy of this size. > European companies, US funds, people everywhere Any evidence of this? China is always going to put social stability first. Anyone dealing in China knows this. The ground rules are well established. The same claim could easily be made against the US and it's restrictions, through it's tax laws, on retail investors holding foreign financial instruments. You always play by the rules of the country you're in; no country on the planet is an open free market. > empty cities and roads to nowhere. This is a classic argument that don't understand China's scale or pay attention the five year plans and policy documents issued by the two sessions. China is in the process of massive urbanization. Those cities need to be built ahead of time. It's a necessary consequence of the scale involved. And as we've seen, the empty cities of 5 years ago have filled up. > league of legend game studio and AMC. I'm not sure what private companies investing outside of China has to do with this. These are not connected to the Chinese government any more than an US private company buying a foreign company is. Actually, it's likely even less connected given how much more the US government facilitates American companies purchasing foreign assists. Again, China has been a next exporter of investment for some time. China is a developing nation and it doesn't make much sense to compare it to developed nations. It has a long way to go; the party's own goal is to start approaching developed nation status in the 2050s. Investing in developing nations always entails more risk and more uncertainty. Beside the literal inaccuracy, your Enron analogy is largely not apt because it's trying to situate it in a developed environment. That said, compared to most developing nations China is a pretty well run one.

SystemOut 11y ago

I sense that you think this is derogatory towards China when it is not. Or at least I don't read it that way. It reads to me as though it shows how connected our world is and how when a large consumer falters it affects all of its suppliers, especially when those suppliers overbuilt capacity. If anything it shows how much of an impact China has on the world due to its sheer size.

gbog 11y ago
Well, to me it shows one main point: China and most other countries, and actually anyone or any entity, will do better not listening to the "advices" and "suggestions" from the newspapers. This reminds me of "The Miller, His Son, and the Ass": just do what you have to do without worrying about what people say or think. But about China there is a special case: Some rampant China-bashing from the US who can't stand someone else getting closer and closer. So we need to be careful, xxx-bashing is bad, except if xxx == self.

danmaz74 11y ago

If China consumes too many resources, other consuming countries get worried and say: "she is draining the world". If China stops growing its consumption of resources, the resources producing countries (and those who invested there) get worried and say: "she is rattling the world". In other words, it's good or bad depending on who you are.

pizza234 11y ago

Environment and economy are related but separate realities. The context of the article is economy. In a large perspective of course excessive consumption is a reasonable worry, but it's important to understand that by making a statement about ecology (draining...), we're reasoning within a different context. This is for example, the same reason why stating that "Bitcoin wastes electricity" is nothing more than a gimmick.