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This is clearly a terrible design flaw by Trend Micro. I hope some responsible are looking for new jobs. Still, there isn't much faith I put in any endpoint s

by cenal 11y ago

This is clearly a terrible design flaw by Trend Micro. I hope some responsible are looking for new jobs. Still, there isn't much faith I put in any endpoint security solutions. They are all terrible. Bromium seems to be bucking the trend of traditional endpoint security but they have one of the worst sales / business dev programs I have ever seen. They should be much more ubiquitous than they are.

api 11y ago
The problem is that endpoint OSes are horribly insecure. It's hard to well nigh impossible to build a third party "endpoint security solution" for that, since this amounts to creating an aftermarket patch to plug a leaky dike.
- EvanPlaice 11y ago
  There's a simple solution for that. Use a unikernel and make the entire OS immutable. I'm really looking forward to the day where the tools are mature enough to make this an option.
  - api 11y ago
    Fine for single-purpose app deployments, but on a grander scale you've just pushed all the security problems back to the APIs and interfaces of your cloud provider and/or virtualization engine. Now an AWS access token constitutes a root password for everything (for example).
    - digi_owl 11y ago
      Bingo. the PCs of old were more secure in that they did only one thing at once. These days even the most barebones install have all manner of things running in the background, and any normal user setup is likely to add a dozen more.
    - EvanPlaice 11y ago
      Access tokens are a 'manageable' risk and AWS provides tools to enforce best practices where necessary. Locating and regularly patching security vulnerabilities across thousands of components in a fully-featured monolithic operating system isn't. It's a potential disaster waiting to happen. You don't need... ...a huge bundle of drivers when the OS will always run on a VM. ...extensive filesystem support when everything will be either transient or run directly from memory. ...multiple users when only one is required. ...OS-level sandboxing (ie kernel/user-space) when the VM already provides sandboxing. ...native POSIX tools when 'safe' alternatives can be run from the VM. Despite the best intentions of developers and admins alike, the current approach to security is not working. Despite my own vigilance, I have personally had my sensitive information leaked by two separate multi-billion dollar organizations in the past year. It's a simple fact that every feature added, increases the attack surface of the entire system. All I'm suggesting, is that it's not a bad idea to start looking to the alternatives that are becoming available.
  - drdrey 11y ago
    I don't think it qualifies as a "simple solution" if it's not feasible with today's standards.
    - fake-name 11y ago
      Simple != trivial. A space elevator is simple. Building one is very much not trivial. This is similar.
      - EvanPlaice 11y ago
        NodeOS is well on the way. Packaging a server backend along with a minimal kernel and V8 VM isn't any more complicated than most of the build tools used today. Here are the specifics: http://node-os.com/GitBlog/article.html#!200 http://node-os.com/GitBlog/article.html#!200 When you cut 99% of the crap out of an OS, it becomes a lot easier to package/distribute. Most of the work on NodeOS has to do with replacing POSIX with Javascript equivalents. Immutable operating systems aren't a new idea either. How you think a Linux LiveCD works? ChromeOS is basically an immutable OS with an added persistence layer. There's a lot more work to be done before any of the Unikernel implementations (ie NodeOS isn't the only one) are ready for production. With that said, for webservers that aren't required to persist any state locally, it makes sense to remove mutability -- and there fore OS-level security vulnerabilities -- as a concern. That way, devs have more time/resources to focus on app-level security.
  - drdrey 11y ago
    So this happened: https://twitter.com/shit_hn_says/status/686782891716521984 https://twitter.com/shit_hn_says/status/686782891716521984
porpoisemonkey 11y ago
"I hope some responsible are looking for new jobs." If they look for (and find) new jobs wouldn't that just mean the problem is diffused? Personally I would hope they learn from the experience of failing than to get punished for it.
- mikeash 11y ago
  That's a great sentiment, but sometimes we have to stick to more realistic hopes.
- cmurf 11y ago
  Personally, I hope everyone else (not at Trend Micro) learns from this experience. Computer security auditing is a serious expertise, it's hard but made much harder to impossible when you don't have experts on the team and instead consider security expertise as a hobby for the qualifier. trendmicro.com > About > "Smart, simple, security that fits" And then second is, "a global leader in IT security" and "25 years of security expertise". What a crock. I'm supposed to take the company's position statements and products seriously after reading this issue report? This is like finding a sponge in the body cavity of a patient. It's functionally malpractice. The CIO and CTO should be fired. The CEO probably should resign, what else is the purpose of a CEO other than to make sure the main things the company stands for are true, and actually ships products that demonstrate it stands for those things? If they don't resign the board needs to fire them.
  - cmurf 11y ago
    I'd like to point out that it'd be an even bigger and redder red flag (if that's possible), should Trend Micro fire some team "security" developer, or even the product manager. How is it possible, that a company which describes itself in the terms it has [1], have not done a thorough code review of all products before making them public? That is implicit in their own description of what their business does. I'm not even sure the worst parts of this particular product's flaws would have escaped cursory code review by someone who is actually a security expert. And if that's true, then selling this product as it was before patching, might be fraud. [1] http://www.trendmicro.com/cloud-content/us/pdfs/about/ds_corp-facts-stnd-size.pdf http://www.trendmicro.com/cloud-content/us/pdfs/about/ds_cor...
droopybuns 11y ago
Those people who are responsible just received a significant education. I don't think throwing coders or designers into a pit when they make big errors does anything helpful. Most likely, Trend has a cultural problem. Big errors like this can be an aide that spurs corrections.

by cenal 11y ago

api 11y ago

The problem is that endpoint OSes are horribly insecure. It's hard to well nigh impossible to build a third party "endpoint security solution" for that, since this amounts to creating an aftermarket patch to plug a leaky dike.

EvanPlaice 11y ago
There's a simple solution for that. Use a unikernel and make the entire OS immutable. I'm really looking forward to the day where the tools are mature enough to make this an option.
- api 11y ago
  Fine for single-purpose app deployments, but on a grander scale you've just pushed all the security problems back to the APIs and interfaces of your cloud provider and/or virtualization engine. Now an AWS access token constitutes a root password for everything (for example).
  - digi_owl 11y ago
    Bingo. the PCs of old were more secure in that they did only one thing at once. These days even the most barebones install have all manner of things running in the background, and any normal user setup is likely to add a dozen more.
  - EvanPlaice 11y ago
    Access tokens are a 'manageable' risk and AWS provides tools to enforce best practices where necessary. Locating and regularly patching security vulnerabilities across thousands of components in a fully-featured monolithic operating system isn't. It's a potential disaster waiting to happen. You don't need... ...a huge bundle of drivers when the OS will always run on a VM. ...extensive filesystem support when everything will be either transient or run directly from memory. ...multiple users when only one is required. ...OS-level sandboxing (ie kernel/user-space) when the VM already provides sandboxing. ...native POSIX tools when 'safe' alternatives can be run from the VM. Despite the best intentions of developers and admins alike, the current approach to security is not working. Despite my own vigilance, I have personally had my sensitive information leaked by two separate multi-billion dollar organizations in the past year. It's a simple fact that every feature added, increases the attack surface of the entire system. All I'm suggesting, is that it's not a bad idea to start looking to the alternatives that are becoming available.
- drdrey 11y ago
  I don't think it qualifies as a "simple solution" if it's not feasible with today's standards.
  - fake-name 11y ago
    Simple != trivial. A space elevator is simple. Building one is very much not trivial. This is similar.
    - EvanPlaice 11y ago
      NodeOS is well on the way. Packaging a server backend along with a minimal kernel and V8 VM isn't any more complicated than most of the build tools used today. Here are the specifics: http://node-os.com/GitBlog/article.html#!200 http://node-os.com/GitBlog/article.html#!200 When you cut 99% of the crap out of an OS, it becomes a lot easier to package/distribute. Most of the work on NodeOS has to do with replacing POSIX with Javascript equivalents. Immutable operating systems aren't a new idea either. How you think a Linux LiveCD works? ChromeOS is basically an immutable OS with an added persistence layer. There's a lot more work to be done before any of the Unikernel implementations (ie NodeOS isn't the only one) are ready for production. With that said, for webservers that aren't required to persist any state locally, it makes sense to remove mutability -- and there fore OS-level security vulnerabilities -- as a concern. That way, devs have more time/resources to focus on app-level security.
- drdrey 11y ago
  So this happened: https://twitter.com/shit_hn_says/status/686782891716521984 https://twitter.com/shit_hn_says/status/686782891716521984

porpoisemonkey 11y ago

"I hope some responsible are looking for new jobs." If they look for (and find) new jobs wouldn't that just mean the problem is diffused? Personally I would hope they learn from the experience of failing than to get punished for it.

mikeash 11y ago
That's a great sentiment, but sometimes we have to stick to more realistic hopes.
cmurf 11y ago
Personally, I hope everyone else (not at Trend Micro) learns from this experience. Computer security auditing is a serious expertise, it's hard but made much harder to impossible when you don't have experts on the team and instead consider security expertise as a hobby for the qualifier. trendmicro.com > About > "Smart, simple, security that fits" And then second is, "a global leader in IT security" and "25 years of security expertise". What a crock. I'm supposed to take the company's position statements and products seriously after reading this issue report? This is like finding a sponge in the body cavity of a patient. It's functionally malpractice. The CIO and CTO should be fired. The CEO probably should resign, what else is the purpose of a CEO other than to make sure the main things the company stands for are true, and actually ships products that demonstrate it stands for those things? If they don't resign the board needs to fire them.
- cmurf 11y ago
  I'd like to point out that it'd be an even bigger and redder red flag (if that's possible), should Trend Micro fire some team "security" developer, or even the product manager. How is it possible, that a company which describes itself in the terms it has [1], have not done a thorough code review of all products before making them public? That is implicit in their own description of what their business does. I'm not even sure the worst parts of this particular product's flaws would have escaped cursory code review by someone who is actually a security expert. And if that's true, then selling this product as it was before patching, might be fraud. [1] http://www.trendmicro.com/cloud-content/us/pdfs/about/ds_corp-facts-stnd-size.pdf http://www.trendmicro.com/cloud-content/us/pdfs/about/ds_cor...

droopybuns 11y ago

Those people who are responsible just received a significant education. I don't think throwing coders or designers into a pit when they make big errors does anything helpful. Most likely, Trend has a cultural problem. Big errors like this can be an aide that spurs corrections.