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I'm split on how I feel about Apple's continuing efforts to make iPad education a thing: https://www.apple.com/education/preview/ https://www.apple.com/educatio

I'm split on how I feel about Apple's continuing efforts to make iPad education a thing: https://www.apple.com/education/preview/ https://www.apple.com/education/preview/ I have sweet memories of spending many a rainy day in the computer lab during recess on the candy-colored imacs, creating art on kidpix, putting together a crappy HTML site that would link to a friend's crappy HTML site, and playing nanosaur, bugdom, and the oregon trail. Computer education is huge, but I'm not sure if iPads are the right/necessary stepping stone into using an actual computer. They seem more like entertainment consumption devices than creation driving devices where things get messy and frustrating and force you to fool around to fix them, learning in the process. I've never owned one and I don't have any insight into how much good vs. harm (distraction) they do in the classroom. Anyone have any anecdotes or thoughts to share on Apple's continuing push into the classroom w/ the iPad?

marpstar 11y ago
Do you really think we're going to continue into the future using only paper books? Visual aids were immensely helpful for me in school. Computers are the ultimate visual aid, and tablets are just mobile computers, except for the fact that they actually allow you to manipulate the UI directly with your fingers, making the learning curve significantly lower. My two year old can work an iPad, but has no idea what a mouse or keyboard is. It's crazy when you watch a child that young manipulating technology like they know what they're doing (turn on, swipe open, find YouTube Kids app, watch Thomas the Train, press home button when done to find a new app). To think that this can't be applied to educating children of any age seems a bit naive.
- brazzledazzle 11y ago
  I've seen several two year olds use a mouse and keyboard (well, the arrow keys anyway) just fine. They're not cats. I do think it's a bit easier for them to use a touch screen but it's by no means rocket science to use a mouse and keyboard.
- Nullabillity 11y ago
  > My two year old can work an iPad, but has no idea what a mouse or keyboard is. Because you have given them access to an iPad, but not a (real) computer?
  - jkestner 11y ago
    Right. My toddler knows because she sits in my lap when I'm typing. She has her own spare keyboard to bang on now. This is going to mirror the helicopter parenting conversation, where other opinions are an attack on the way we were raised.
joelrunyon 11y ago
Incidentally, that's exactly what Russell Kirsch (invented the first programmable computer) told me when I ran into him in a coffee shop in Portland. He said: > “I’ve been against Macintosh company lately. They’re trying to get everyone to use iPads and when people use iPads they end up just using technology to consume things instead of making things. With a computer you can make things. You can code, you can make things and create things that have never before existed and do things that have never been done before.” The full story is here - http://impossiblehq.com/an-unexpected-ass-kicking/ http://impossiblehq.com/an-unexpected-ass-kicking/ I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to link to my own stuff, but you asked for anecdotes :-/
- jjtheblunt 11y ago
  "(invented the first programmable computer)" ? Citation?
  - reverend_gonzo 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_A._Kirsch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_A._Kirsch In 1951 Kirsch joined the National Bureau of Standards (NBS) as part of the team which ran SEAC, the Standards Eastern Automatic Computer.[2] SEAC was the U.S.'s first stored-program computer to become operational.
    - zumatic 11y ago
      linked from that page: """ The University of Manchester's Small-Scale Experimental Machine (SSEM)[15] is generally recognized as world's first electronic computer that ran a stored program—an event that occurred on 21 June 1948.[16][17] However the SSEM was not regarded as a full-fledged computer, but more a proof of concept predecessor to the Manchester Mark 1 computer, which was first put to research work in April 1949. On 6 May 1949 the EDSAC in Cambridge ran its first program, making it arguably "the first complete and fully operational regular electronic digital stored-program computer".[18] It is sometimes claimed that the IBM SSEC, operational in January 1948, was the first stored-program computer;[19] this claim is controversial, not least because of the hierarchical memory system of the SSEC, and because some aspects of its operations, like access to relays or tape drives, were determined by plugging.[20] """ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-program_computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-program_computer
melted 11y ago
I think there's a ton of potential, TBH. Look at Pythonista, for example. My 12yo is having a ton of fun with that. I don't see why such environments couldn't exist for other pedagogically interesting languages such as e.g. Racket.
- zitterbewegung 11y ago
  Racket has a great teaching environment from HTDP. Its part of the default install also.
  - melted 11y ago
    I know. Would be pretty cool to have the same on the iPad as well, with the kind of polish that Pythonista offers. I'd pay for that.
dzhiurgis 11y ago
You can program a computer using iPad or Chromebook, it just might not be the computer you are using.
- josso 11y ago
  But it might very well be. Just see Pythonista[0] as a great example for scripting on iOS. [0]: http://omz-software.com/pythonista/ http://omz-software.com/pythonista/
niels_olson 11y ago
I'm so over tablets for kids. If I give my 10 yo son a 15 year old Dell laptop with OpenBSD and wifi over a USB dongle, and a book (1), he learns python. Give him a 27" iMac and he learns to find and play meaningless random crappy Flash games, watch Minecraft videos, and occasionally play minecraft or do something else, like looks something up, checks his homework assignments, et Give him an iPhone or an iPad, he just learns to find and play meaningless random crappy iOS games. I honestly think letting my daughter buy her own ipad was poor parenting on my part. (1) https://www.nostarch.com/pythonforkids https://www.nostarch.com/pythonforkids
- sosborn 11y ago
  Is it not possible to learn python on the iMac?
  - NamTaf 11y ago
    Of course it is; the GP is pretty biased. they could just as simply give their kid the same book on an iMac. Equally, their kid could play the equally crappy flash games on a Windows PC, and pick up some nice malware along the way because flash is a disaster.
    - niels_olson 11y ago
      > they could just as simply give their kid the same book on an iMac. The old laptop, the iMac, and the book are all in the same room.
  - gcr 11y ago
    Part of it is asking whether learning Python on an iMac is close to the path of least resistance. I credit much of my childhood computer engineering learning to having to hack on an old cruddy laptop, where either I got nothing or had to learn to make do with what I had. If Minecraft were more readily available to me back then, I wouldn't have much of a reason to learn Python or anything else.
  - niels_olson 11y ago
balls187 11y ago
You watch star-trek, and other films/shows set in the future that show classrooms with tablet like devices? There is something pretty special with the tablet, and the only thing that is changing is really the way input (and less so-output) is done. As a kid, I also remember the power strips for the Apple lab were so janky, that if you accidently kicked it, it would reset the entire bank of computers. Or those old 5 1/2 floppy disks that had exposed magnetic media that tended to get screwed up. Logo-writer, kidpix (omg so great), Hypercard, were foundational to me. But todays children have access to minecraft, and very soon Virtual Reality. There is no way I'd want to force the tools of my education on kids today. I'm so excited for my (soon to be born) child.
radicaldreamer 11y ago
Apple's supposedly working on XCode for the iPad: https://www.macstories.net/linked/why-the-ipad-pro-needs-xcode/ https://www.macstories.net/linked/why-the-ipad-pro-needs-xco...
deet 11y ago
From what I understand, the iPad has had substantial impact in how certain students with special needs are taught. It enables communication with some low functioning students who otherwise could not communicate due to impairments. Remember computers are not just limited to educating students about computers -- they can function as alternatives to pencil and paper in some cases. For example, they can help students compose papers who otherwise would not be able to write (a student might have a disorder that interferes with the ability to translate thoughts/words into handwriting motion, but otherwise the student might be perfectly capable of composing sentences and logical thoughts -- so dictation is groundbreaking.) They can also help teachers explore understanding of concepts in a way that's uncoupled from traditional representations -- for example letting students answer questions by pointing at pictures instead of speaking. I don't really know the full extent of it, but from special education teachers I know, the iPad seems to have become an essential tool because it makes these alternative interactions so much easier than they were before.
brianpan 11y ago
My company does some volunteering with a local elementary school using Hour of Code[1]. I worked with kids from grade 2-5 and they used iPads to complete the web-based "puzzles". The projects teach programming basics by dragging-and-dropping sets of instructions and using loops, etc. When they couldn't solve a puzzle, I talked to them about testing and building their solution incrementally. The teachers seemed very excited about it and about building on the experience. [1] https://hourofcode.com/us https://hourofcode.com/us
endual 11y ago
I totally agree that tablets suck for creation. But I think you're assuming that programming is the only thing to learn via a device. In my day job we make educational HTML games for kids learning english and math. A heap of schools use this as part of lessons, and we get a lot of extremely positive feedback from teachers. As to whether an iPad is better than a computer? From a kid's UX, and IT infrastructure POV, tablets are generally seen as better/easier to use and maintain. At home, I try to keep my kids off screens whenever I can though...
nikdaheratik 11y ago
I'm mixed mainly because I feel like their enthusiasm for what the product can do outstrips what it is often used for, and I don't know that what they're pushing actually matches up with what Education users need. As other users said, I think they're trying to replace the textbook rather than replacing the computer lab. But alot of what we've seen so far shows that students may actually retain info better from a physical book. Also, netbooks with keyboards are probably better for typing &co. than much of the interface (while being quite a bit cheaper). So it feels more like a shiny, expensive, early adopter/guinea pig program than this revolution in education. OTOH, there is a huge potential upside once the tech matures, and maybe it can't mature without starting somewhere.
zanny 11y ago
iPads in schools serve the exact same purpose macbooks did in the past, and its the same thing Google is doing with Chromebooks, albeit its not as bad. Its buying new customers. If kids are literally raised on your products, you take them as yours before they even have money to buy computers in the first place. I went to a high school that used macbooks, and I'm probably the only person staunchly anti-Apple from my graduating class I know out of 50+ people - the vast majority of them are now primary Apple users over Windows, Android, Linux, etc. Its not philanthropy, that's for sure. I personally think its extremely important to get open, hackable hardware in the hands of students instead of some of the most locked down proprietary consumer devices to ever be pushed so aggressively on kids. For selfish reasons, because I don't want a proprietary world of tonka class computers and corporate controlled software - I want open platforms using open standards so I can use what I want and not be strong armed into some proprietary control by a business entity. The only way to get that is with an understanding and appreciation for hacker / open culture, and kids using ipads in class are definitely not getting exposure to anything like that.
pjmlp 11y ago
There are quite a few programming environments on the store, people just have to install them.

marpstar 11y ago

Do you really think we're going to continue into the future using only paper books? Visual aids were immensely helpful for me in school. Computers are the ultimate visual aid, and tablets are just mobile computers, except for the fact that they actually allow you to manipulate the UI directly with your fingers, making the learning curve significantly lower. My two year old can work an iPad, but has no idea what a mouse or keyboard is. It's crazy when you watch a child that young manipulating technology like they know what they're doing (turn on, swipe open, find YouTube Kids app, watch Thomas the Train, press home button when done to find a new app). To think that this can't be applied to educating children of any age seems a bit naive.

brazzledazzle 11y ago
I've seen several two year olds use a mouse and keyboard (well, the arrow keys anyway) just fine. They're not cats. I do think it's a bit easier for them to use a touch screen but it's by no means rocket science to use a mouse and keyboard.
Nullabillity 11y ago
> My two year old can work an iPad, but has no idea what a mouse or keyboard is. Because you have given them access to an iPad, but not a (real) computer?
- jkestner 11y ago
  Right. My toddler knows because she sits in my lap when I'm typing. She has her own spare keyboard to bang on now. This is going to mirror the helicopter parenting conversation, where other opinions are an attack on the way we were raised.

joelrunyon 11y ago

Incidentally, that's exactly what Russell Kirsch (invented the first programmable computer) told me when I ran into him in a coffee shop in Portland. He said: > “I’ve been against Macintosh company lately. They’re trying to get everyone to use iPads and when people use iPads they end up just using technology to consume things instead of making things. With a computer you can make things. You can code, you can make things and create things that have never before existed and do things that have never been done before.” The full story is here - http://impossiblehq.com/an-unexpected-ass-kicking/ http://impossiblehq.com/an-unexpected-ass-kicking/ I hope it doesn't seem like I'm trying to link to my own stuff, but you asked for anecdotes :-/

jjtheblunt 11y ago
"(invented the first programmable computer)" ? Citation?
- reverend_gonzo 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_A._Kirsch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_A._Kirsch In 1951 Kirsch joined the National Bureau of Standards (NBS) as part of the team which ran SEAC, the Standards Eastern Automatic Computer.[2] SEAC was the U.S.'s first stored-program computer to become operational.
  - zumatic 11y ago
    linked from that page: """ The University of Manchester's Small-Scale Experimental Machine (SSEM)[15] is generally recognized as world's first electronic computer that ran a stored program—an event that occurred on 21 June 1948.[16][17] However the SSEM was not regarded as a full-fledged computer, but more a proof of concept predecessor to the Manchester Mark 1 computer, which was first put to research work in April 1949. On 6 May 1949 the EDSAC in Cambridge ran its first program, making it arguably "the first complete and fully operational regular electronic digital stored-program computer".[18] It is sometimes claimed that the IBM SSEC, operational in January 1948, was the first stored-program computer;[19] this claim is controversial, not least because of the hierarchical memory system of the SSEC, and because some aspects of its operations, like access to relays or tape drives, were determined by plugging.[20] """ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-program_computer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stored-program_computer

melted 11y ago

I think there's a ton of potential, TBH. Look at Pythonista, for example. My 12yo is having a ton of fun with that. I don't see why such environments couldn't exist for other pedagogically interesting languages such as e.g. Racket.

zitterbewegung 11y ago
Racket has a great teaching environment from HTDP. Its part of the default install also.
- melted 11y ago
  I know. Would be pretty cool to have the same on the iPad as well, with the kind of polish that Pythonista offers. I'd pay for that.

dzhiurgis 11y ago

You can program a computer using iPad or Chromebook, it just might not be the computer you are using.

josso 11y ago
But it might very well be. Just see Pythonista[0] as a great example for scripting on iOS. [0]: http://omz-software.com/pythonista/ http://omz-software.com/pythonista/

niels_olson 11y ago

I'm so over tablets for kids. If I give my 10 yo son a 15 year old Dell laptop with OpenBSD and wifi over a USB dongle, and a book (1), he learns python. Give him a 27" iMac and he learns to find and play meaningless random crappy Flash games, watch Minecraft videos, and occasionally play minecraft or do something else, like looks something up, checks his homework assignments, et Give him an iPhone or an iPad, he just learns to find and play meaningless random crappy iOS games. I honestly think letting my daughter buy her own ipad was poor parenting on my part. (1) https://www.nostarch.com/pythonforkids https://www.nostarch.com/pythonforkids

sosborn 11y ago
Is it not possible to learn python on the iMac?
- NamTaf 11y ago
  Of course it is; the GP is pretty biased. they could just as simply give their kid the same book on an iMac. Equally, their kid could play the equally crappy flash games on a Windows PC, and pick up some nice malware along the way because flash is a disaster.
  - niels_olson 11y ago
    > they could just as simply give their kid the same book on an iMac. The old laptop, the iMac, and the book are all in the same room.
- gcr 11y ago
  Part of it is asking whether learning Python on an iMac is close to the path of least resistance. I credit much of my childhood computer engineering learning to having to hack on an old cruddy laptop, where either I got nothing or had to learn to make do with what I had. If Minecraft were more readily available to me back then, I wouldn't have much of a reason to learn Python or anything else.
- niels_olson 11y ago

balls187 11y ago

You watch star-trek, and other films/shows set in the future that show classrooms with tablet like devices? There is something pretty special with the tablet, and the only thing that is changing is really the way input (and less so-output) is done. As a kid, I also remember the power strips for the Apple lab were so janky, that if you accidently kicked it, it would reset the entire bank of computers. Or those old 5 1/2 floppy disks that had exposed magnetic media that tended to get screwed up. Logo-writer, kidpix (omg so great), Hypercard, were foundational to me. But todays children have access to minecraft, and very soon Virtual Reality. There is no way I'd want to force the tools of my education on kids today. I'm so excited for my (soon to be born) child.

radicaldreamer 11y ago

Apple's supposedly working on XCode for the iPad: https://www.macstories.net/linked/why-the-ipad-pro-needs-xcode/ https://www.macstories.net/linked/why-the-ipad-pro-needs-xco...

deet 11y ago

From what I understand, the iPad has had substantial impact in how certain students with special needs are taught. It enables communication with some low functioning students who otherwise could not communicate due to impairments. Remember computers are not just limited to educating students about computers -- they can function as alternatives to pencil and paper in some cases. For example, they can help students compose papers who otherwise would not be able to write (a student might have a disorder that interferes with the ability to translate thoughts/words into handwriting motion, but otherwise the student might be perfectly capable of composing sentences and logical thoughts -- so dictation is groundbreaking.) They can also help teachers explore understanding of concepts in a way that's uncoupled from traditional representations -- for example letting students answer questions by pointing at pictures instead of speaking. I don't really know the full extent of it, but from special education teachers I know, the iPad seems to have become an essential tool because it makes these alternative interactions so much easier than they were before.

brianpan 11y ago

My company does some volunteering with a local elementary school using Hour of Code[1]. I worked with kids from grade 2-5 and they used iPads to complete the web-based "puzzles". The projects teach programming basics by dragging-and-dropping sets of instructions and using loops, etc. When they couldn't solve a puzzle, I talked to them about testing and building their solution incrementally. The teachers seemed very excited about it and about building on the experience. [1] https://hourofcode.com/us https://hourofcode.com/us

endual 11y ago

I totally agree that tablets suck for creation. But I think you're assuming that programming is the only thing to learn via a device. In my day job we make educational HTML games for kids learning english and math. A heap of schools use this as part of lessons, and we get a lot of extremely positive feedback from teachers. As to whether an iPad is better than a computer? From a kid's UX, and IT infrastructure POV, tablets are generally seen as better/easier to use and maintain. At home, I try to keep my kids off screens whenever I can though...

nikdaheratik 11y ago

I'm mixed mainly because I feel like their enthusiasm for what the product can do outstrips what it is often used for, and I don't know that what they're pushing actually matches up with what Education users need. As other users said, I think they're trying to replace the textbook rather than replacing the computer lab. But alot of what we've seen so far shows that students may actually retain info better from a physical book. Also, netbooks with keyboards are probably better for typing &co. than much of the interface (while being quite a bit cheaper). So it feels more like a shiny, expensive, early adopter/guinea pig program than this revolution in education. OTOH, there is a huge potential upside once the tech matures, and maybe it can't mature without starting somewhere.

zanny 11y ago

iPads in schools serve the exact same purpose macbooks did in the past, and its the same thing Google is doing with Chromebooks, albeit its not as bad. Its buying new customers. If kids are literally raised on your products, you take them as yours before they even have money to buy computers in the first place. I went to a high school that used macbooks, and I'm probably the only person staunchly anti-Apple from my graduating class I know out of 50+ people - the vast majority of them are now primary Apple users over Windows, Android, Linux, etc. Its not philanthropy, that's for sure. I personally think its extremely important to get open, hackable hardware in the hands of students instead of some of the most locked down proprietary consumer devices to ever be pushed so aggressively on kids. For selfish reasons, because I don't want a proprietary world of tonka class computers and corporate controlled software - I want open platforms using open standards so I can use what I want and not be strong armed into some proprietary control by a business entity. The only way to get that is with an understanding and appreciation for hacker / open culture, and kids using ipads in class are definitely not getting exposure to anything like that.

pjmlp 11y ago

There are quite a few programming environments on the store, people just have to install them.