11 ms·

Unethical Growth Hacking from YayView

356 points by luu 11y ago

chris_wot 11y ago
If any Australians get caught up in this, I sure hope that YayView or their parent company don't have an Australian side to their business. One call to the Australia Privacy Commissioner, and they're toast.
pmcgrathm 11y ago
It is surprising to me that this feels so negative to you. Every large social tech company - Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, Groupon, LivingSocial (RIP), Tinder - have all used tactics similar to what you label 'dark patterns' to bootstrap their businesses. If I am building a network driven product like a dating app or social network, you better be damn sure that it is going to be using 'growth hacking' (read:scraping) methods to increase the viral coefficient per user. Would it also be news to you if I told you that 719 singles in your zip code did not, actually, want to see you tonight?
- anon1385 11y ago
  >It is surprising to me that this feels so negative to you. Every large social tech company - Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, Groupon, LivingSocial (RIP), Tinder - have all used tactics similar to what you label 'dark patterns' to bootstrap their businesses. That doesn't make it acceptable. The people who fund, manage and work for these types of companies should be blacklisted in the industry.
  - kevindeasis 11y ago
    Seems like you want to make a black list that is very very long. It will be interesting to see groups who tries to blacklist these companies.
    - TeMPOraL 11y ago
      > Seems like you want to make a black list that is very very long. Probably. But it's long exactly because people are not willing to blacklist as much as they should. The market is under no obligation to respect you. In fact, competitive pressures push everyone towards exploiting you as much as it is possible. So the limit of crap we're being served is the same as what we're willing to endure.
- muzani 11y ago
  This was why I stopped using LinkedIn an Groupon though. The others are slightly deceptive, but not to the point of blatantly invading privacy like that.
- verroq 11y ago
  How dare people feel manipulated when small companies use dark UI patterns when big companies do it too. That is a false dichotomy if I see one.
  - kintamanimatt 11y ago
    I think you meant to type hypocrisy. It's definitely an example of a double standard, not a false choice.
- MereInterest 11y ago
  And no matter how big LinkedIn gets, I will not forgive them for spamming me five years ago when they were just starting. It was unacceptable then, it is unacceptable now, and it informed me right away that they are not the sort of company that I want to interact with.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    And, more importantly, it is a company that you do not want to ruin your contacts view of you.
  - hyperbovine 11y ago
    LinkedIn is like 15 years old. I was getting spam from them back in college.
- 59nadir 11y ago
  > It is surprising to me that this feels so negative to you. Every large social tech company - Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, Groupon, LivingSocial (RIP), Tinder - have all used tactics similar to what you label 'dark patterns' to bootstrap their businesses. Yes, LinkedIn is well known for essentially spreading itself like a virus with a bunch of interactions unknown to the user and that's exactly why no one should be using it. If I see that someone has a LinkedIn profile it's pretty much a minus nowadays.
- pluma 11y ago
  In more civilised countries these practices are actually illegal. Just saying.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    The more civilized countries still let a lot of shit like this fly. Most of the advertising industry we have today would not exist in an actually civilized world.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Then we should start here and make sure that it at least doesn't become more companies doing these things. I have all @facebook.com email on blacklist on my email server because I get daily spam from Facebook trying to get me to spend more time on the page, even with everything turned off.
- hluska 11y ago
  Frankly, judging from your profile, I'm afraid to be a Netflix customer now.
- doktrin 11y ago
  I wasn't remotely surprised when the NSA's numerous electronic surveillance programs were made public. Doesn't mean I approve.
hboon 11y ago
> How did it get his photos? Well, he has friends who signed up with Facebook. View scans its user’s Facebook friends for other students, and creates fake View profiles I thought the Facebook API does not allow pulling the complete friends list anymore. i.e. it excludes those friends that do not already have the corresponding Facebook app installed, precisely to stop this tactic?
- lgas 11y ago
  The API docs don't mention any such restriction: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/reference/friend-list/ https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/reference/fri...
  - fittom 11y ago
    > Friend list now only returns friends who also use your app: The list of friends returned via the /me/friends endpoint is now limited to the list of friends that have authorized your app. source: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/apps/changelog https://developers.facebook.com/docs/apps/changelog
    - japaw 11y ago
      Maybe web scraping then? It would not be so hard to make a focused scraper that scrapes the friends of anyone using the app. Edit: I did a quick test and at looks like I can see the friend list of many users that is not in my immediate network as long as I am logged in to Facebook. It should then be easy to use something like Perls WWW::Mecanize to make a scraper that log inn and scrapes the profiles you want, as long as one do not need so many that Facebook detects and banns you.
      - hboon 11y ago
        But I presume they don't have the users' passwords to login with.
        11y ago
ericflo 11y ago
Other than creating profiles for users that didn't sign up, which is over the line, the rest of this seems like just solid product marketing and user onboarding.
- zazpowered 11y ago
  What about email spam
  - mintplant 11y ago
    Indeed. I'm no lawyer, but isn't this likely a violation of the CAN-SPAM Act?
    - corobo 11y ago
      Also not a lawyer (and in the UK) - I tried to dig out a loophole for example "Your friend technically sent the message to you not us!" sort of thing But no, as a layman I can't see how this is getting by the CAN-SPAM act. It doesn't give you the option to not send it and sends it anonymously. From the recipient point of view it's just a random unsolicited email. I guess it's one of those it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission things. My guess is the moment someone with potential legal clout challenges this the invites will be changed to a "Do you want to invite your friend yes/no" system
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
trymas 11y ago
<rant> It's not the first time I will rant about this, but why use the word 'hacking' here? YayView sort of exploited the system by automatically creating users from freely available data on the social networks, but is it 'hacking' per se? I think that YayView is not a hacker company, and just a startup using very unethical business tactics. IMHO, term `hacking` is used everywhere to raise `click-bait-itness`, no matter it fits there or not. </rant>
- zazpowered 11y ago
  Growth hacker and hacker are very different things
  - bottled_poe 11y ago
    These roles look suspiciously like more traditional "business development manager" and "software developer" but I guess those titles weren't trendy enough so we hacked role titles and now everyone gets to be a "hacker".
    - qubex 11y ago
      ”Growth hacker” is a term a marketer came up with to market marketers.
    - trymas 11y ago
      +1 exactly. There is business development, though if there is a article which title has 'developer' in it, it does mean `a software developer` mostly, unless you read a particular business development article. Though `growth hacking`, personally, I think is made up buzzword, for some managers to feel good and cool, that they are like the hacker from 90s. Startup growth falls under `business development and management` in my head, not under `(growth) hacking`.
- digbyloftus 11y ago
  Hacker in this context means someone who quickly and cheaply creates new things, as in "it's hacked together". Like how we're on Hacker News, it's not a security website, it's a website for people interested in startup news. Growth hacking basically means any form of growth that doesn't come from a fat marketing budget or traditional brand growing methods. I definitely think their method counts.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
logicallee 11y ago
While independently, I studied the field of ethics quite seriously. Since the title uses the word "unethical" it is important to realize that ethics isn't just a matter of opinion. Without getting deeper into the field, it's fair to say that on the basis of this article (I have no personal opinion, the author's article is the first I heard of this app) I consider the behavior outlined highly ethical. In particular the author notes: "Serena, my friend, is a heavy View user already" Which implies to me that the app brings great benefits to its users. An example of a clearly unethical growth hack is if the result of using the app was detrimental to its users, for example if the goal of the app were to start getting its users to start smoking cigarettes through inventing a fake impression that friends were doing so. While a point of debate, it is not so controversial to argue that actions should be judged at least in part on the basis of their likely outcomes, and the author shows that the outcome here is positive for people. Naturally there are grey areas but on the whole the article does not seem to prove the title. I have no interest in or disclaimer to make on this subject and clicked through for the same reason everyone else did, to see an example of unethical growth hacking. I don't believe I did see one.
- rvense 11y ago
  There's absolutely no question that this is unethical. I put images and information online because I want to share them with my friends. TOS and legalities aside, that does not mean I want businesses to scrape it and use it to roll out the fake profile astroturf. I don't care how much benefit their app might bring to me. Let me seek it out on my own. Don't sneak your way into my mailbox, and most certainly don't make it look like you've some sort of semi-official relationship with my school or teachers.
  - logicallee 11y ago
    Cigarettes are immoral in my opinion despite extremely clear warning labels (which are on them due to government mandate) and nothing that would trip the moral filters expressed in the article. If you don't think consequences matter, you're welcome to your view. I happen to have a different view of morals and ethics, and one that I studied to attain.
- 11y ago
bakhy 11y ago
totally unethical, i agree. the part about the investment really surprised me. do investors have a responsibility to study the legality of that which they are supporting with their capital?
- mathgeek 11y ago
  > do investors have a responsibility to study the legality of that which they are supporting with their capital? Perhaps, but we all know there is plenty of money to be had for a company that toes the line in terms of legality. "This may be illegal" is not the same as it being so.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    Especially that throwing investor money at lawyers to ensure laws aren't enforced can be sometimes a viable strategy for a company trying to disrupt an existing market - like, say, transportation.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  Yes, investors (or rather, their lawyers) do legal due diligence. Even so the company investing may have overlooked this and then there is still the duty of the company to inform their investors prior to investing of any legal issues. It's complex, especially when there are multiple jurisdictions involved, the laws on these subjects tend to vary from place to place. Another complication is that (like many things during dd) this straddles the line between technology on the one side and legal on the other. If I were to come across it during a dd I'd flag legal to take an in-depth look. (Regardless of it being un-ethical.) Don't be surprised if to the parties investing this was not a red flag and they invested anyway, also don't be surprised if they simply were ignorant of the matter due to time pressure or unfamiliarity with the territory. Not all investments are done after a full process dd.
- zephod 11y ago
  I wasn't at all surprised to see this is a funded startup -- it's had a lot of effort put into the design and execution, and it just screams desperation to me. I imagine somebody is under a lot of pressure to hit their growth metrics, and they probably convinced themselves that throwing out the rulebook is ok.
spacefight 11y ago
That is not only unethical that is also illegal in some countries. Also, this is the reason why you should have FB platform a) turned off and b) disallow that your friends "bring your data with them when they use apps".
- nyc640 11y ago
  For anyone curious on how to do this: 1) Click the down arrow (▼) in the top right, then go to 'Settings'. 2) Click 'Apps' in the bar on the left side. 3) Click 'Edit' under 'Apps, Websites, and Plugins' then 'Turn Off' 4) Click 'Edit' under 'Apps Others Use' and uncheck everything, then 'Save'.
  - Cub3 11y ago
    Thanks, just did this, really useful info :)
  - joeconway 11y ago
    Thank you.
coldcode 11y ago
This app also violate numerous App Store rules, but getting Apple to do something about it takes an act of Congress. Still you hope someone at Apple reads Hacker News.
- natch 11y ago
  Fortunately, in case Congress is out of session, they do have a URL that can help: https://reportaproblem.apple.com https://reportaproblem.apple.com
- rmc 11y ago
  And I thought the App Store review process was there to catch these sorts of violations?
- AJ007 11y ago
  They are also breaking CAN SPAM by sending deceptive emails. It is pretty cut and dry that the email claims X, but that feature is no where to be found - at least based on what is written. Tagged.com did a very similar thing to get users to sign up, and they had to pay over $1 million in fines back in 2009. This in itself may not be a big disincentive for many companies, but the consequences if it is done after a settlement are.
quantumpotato_ 11y ago
Well, that's what happen when you use Facebook..
natch 11y ago
Searching for YayView on the app store, nothing comes up. To find the app, search for these keywords: view meet your classmates A possible connection to an app called Highlight is further indicated by the fact that the AWS landing page for the View app contains the string highlig.ht. Any App Store user can report a problem with an app by first downloading the app (no need to actually run it, and it can't do any damage without being run), then visiting https://reportaproblem.apple.com https://reportaproblem.apple.com and signing in. The app will appear at the top of the list of downloaded apps, and next to the app is a "Report a Problem" button.
- Flow 11y ago
  > no need to actually run it, and it can't do any damage without being run How sure about this are you? Some common apps like Hangout and Facebook misuse iOS features to run in the background despite Background App Refresh is turned off, AFAIK.
  - jayvanguard 11y ago
    Up to iOS 7 at least, there was no way to run in the background without the app being launched at least once. I haven't worked with the latest two versions though.
  - natch 11y ago
    iOS developer here. Pretty damn sure. All the ways I know of for running code in the background, and I've looked at this quite a bit, require at least one launch for them to be enabled.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Which features, exactly? The only one I'm aware of is marking the app as a VoIP app, which means the system will keep it alive and let it occasionally check in with the mothership. But Apple heavily scrutinized apps marked as such to make sure they actually need it. And even then, I don't think they run until the user starts them at least once. Even if the app could automatically run on download, it couldn't access any interesting information without being activated by the user and prompting to allow access to location, contacts, photos, etc.
richerlariviere 11y ago
I would be curious to capture all the network requests done by this app. Maybe we didn't see all the iceberg.
sidcool 11y ago
This reminds of an app that made reservations on your behalf in restaurants. The unethical part was that it made fake reservations before hand (with fake names) and then auctioned the name.
rmc 11y ago
And you wonder why the European Courts have started to strongly enforce the right to data protection. Us in the tech world need to be honest, we're bad at privacy.
- Mahn 11y ago
  See, I don't get this. Europe is acting as if it had a duty to protect its people from the bad companies that steal your privacy while you sleep, whereas in reality nothing happens if you don't explicitly give consent first. Don't want Facebook to use your personal data to sell you ads? Don't put it on Facebook. Don't want YayView to access your location at all times? Then don't give it access to it, it's asking you right there, even if it's being shady about it. It's a little bit like if people had trouble using forks without stabbing themselves, and the proposed solution was to ban all forks in the country. Well perhaps more work should go towards teaching people how to use a fork, since they can be useful for meals, rather than banning them? Don't get me wrong, it's a shame that companies like YayView exploit dark patterns to trick people into doing things they don't fully understand, but let's not ban all the things because of it.
  - Beltiras 11y ago
    I want to live in a world where I don't need to worry about my information being disclosed by a third party. The world you propose is one where there is a chilling effect on sharing anything with anyone.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    That's totally wrong headed. They have deliberately deceived people into accepting prompts and neglected to give them all the facts. That's deception through omission, clear and simple.
    - Mahn 11y ago
      I'm not saying they are not to blame, just that more work should be done in teaching the end user that they cannot trust everything they are told, much like in real life.
jv22222 11y ago
I guess a good term to describe this is - dark hat growth hacking.
EGreg 11y ago
"View scans its user’s Facebook friends for other students, and creates fake View profiles that anybody can edit, " "This is never disclosed to the user" I thought that the Facebook API no longer exposed ANY friend info to apps, without special permission that the user grants! And that permission has to be reviewed by facebook.
the_watcher 11y ago
Won't View just get their Facebook authorization yanked now that this has come out? This is sort of a worst use possible in terms of disclosure and user-privacy to Facebook.

356 points by luu 11y ago

If any Australians get caught up in this, I sure hope that YayView or their parent company don't have an Australian side to their business. One call to the Australia Privacy Commissioner, and they're toast.

pmcgrathm 11y ago

It is surprising to me that this feels so negative to you. Every large social tech company - Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, Groupon, LivingSocial (RIP), Tinder - have all used tactics similar to what you label 'dark patterns' to bootstrap their businesses. If I am building a network driven product like a dating app or social network, you better be damn sure that it is going to be using 'growth hacking' (read:scraping) methods to increase the viral coefficient per user. Would it also be news to you if I told you that 719 singles in your zip code did not, actually, want to see you tonight?

anon1385 11y ago
>It is surprising to me that this feels so negative to you. Every large social tech company - Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, Groupon, LivingSocial (RIP), Tinder - have all used tactics similar to what you label 'dark patterns' to bootstrap their businesses. That doesn't make it acceptable. The people who fund, manage and work for these types of companies should be blacklisted in the industry.
- kevindeasis 11y ago
  Seems like you want to make a black list that is very very long. It will be interesting to see groups who tries to blacklist these companies.
  - TeMPOraL 11y ago
    > Seems like you want to make a black list that is very very long. Probably. But it's long exactly because people are not willing to blacklist as much as they should. The market is under no obligation to respect you. In fact, competitive pressures push everyone towards exploiting you as much as it is possible. So the limit of crap we're being served is the same as what we're willing to endure.
muzani 11y ago
This was why I stopped using LinkedIn an Groupon though. The others are slightly deceptive, but not to the point of blatantly invading privacy like that.
verroq 11y ago
How dare people feel manipulated when small companies use dark UI patterns when big companies do it too. That is a false dichotomy if I see one.
- kintamanimatt 11y ago
  I think you meant to type hypocrisy. It's definitely an example of a double standard, not a false choice.
MereInterest 11y ago
And no matter how big LinkedIn gets, I will not forgive them for spamming me five years ago when they were just starting. It was unacceptable then, it is unacceptable now, and it informed me right away that they are not the sort of company that I want to interact with.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  And, more importantly, it is a company that you do not want to ruin your contacts view of you.
- hyperbovine 11y ago
  LinkedIn is like 15 years old. I was getting spam from them back in college.
59nadir 11y ago
> It is surprising to me that this feels so negative to you. Every large social tech company - Facebook, Linkedin, Twitter, Groupon, LivingSocial (RIP), Tinder - have all used tactics similar to what you label 'dark patterns' to bootstrap their businesses. Yes, LinkedIn is well known for essentially spreading itself like a virus with a bunch of interactions unknown to the user and that's exactly why no one should be using it. If I see that someone has a LinkedIn profile it's pretty much a minus nowadays.
pluma 11y ago
In more civilised countries these practices are actually illegal. Just saying.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  The more civilized countries still let a lot of shit like this fly. Most of the advertising industry we have today would not exist in an actually civilized world.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Then we should start here and make sure that it at least doesn't become more companies doing these things. I have all @facebook.com email on blacklist on my email server because I get daily spam from Facebook trying to get me to spend more time on the page, even with everything turned off.
hluska 11y ago
Frankly, judging from your profile, I'm afraid to be a Netflix customer now.
doktrin 11y ago
I wasn't remotely surprised when the NSA's numerous electronic surveillance programs were made public. Doesn't mean I approve.

hboon 11y ago

> How did it get his photos? Well, he has friends who signed up with Facebook. View scans its user’s Facebook friends for other students, and creates fake View profiles I thought the Facebook API does not allow pulling the complete friends list anymore. i.e. it excludes those friends that do not already have the corresponding Facebook app installed, precisely to stop this tactic?

lgas 11y ago
The API docs don't mention any such restriction: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/reference/friend-list/ https://developers.facebook.com/docs/graph-api/reference/fri...
- fittom 11y ago
  > Friend list now only returns friends who also use your app: The list of friends returned via the /me/friends endpoint is now limited to the list of friends that have authorized your app. source: https://developers.facebook.com/docs/apps/changelog https://developers.facebook.com/docs/apps/changelog
  - japaw 11y ago
    Maybe web scraping then? It would not be so hard to make a focused scraper that scrapes the friends of anyone using the app. Edit: I did a quick test and at looks like I can see the friend list of many users that is not in my immediate network as long as I am logged in to Facebook. It should then be easy to use something like Perls WWW::Mecanize to make a scraper that log inn and scrapes the profiles you want, as long as one do not need so many that Facebook detects and banns you.
    - hboon 11y ago
      But I presume they don't have the users' passwords to login with.
      - 11y ago

ericflo 11y ago

Other than creating profiles for users that didn't sign up, which is over the line, the rest of this seems like just solid product marketing and user onboarding.

zazpowered 11y ago
What about email spam
- mintplant 11y ago
  Indeed. I'm no lawyer, but isn't this likely a violation of the CAN-SPAM Act?
  - corobo 11y ago
    Also not a lawyer (and in the UK) - I tried to dig out a loophole for example "Your friend technically sent the message to you not us!" sort of thing But no, as a layman I can't see how this is getting by the CAN-SPAM act. It doesn't give you the option to not send it and sends it anonymously. From the recipient point of view it's just a random unsolicited email. I guess it's one of those it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission things. My guess is the moment someone with potential legal clout challenges this the invites will be changed to a "Do you want to invite your friend yes/no" system
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

trymas 11y ago

<rant> It's not the first time I will rant about this, but why use the word 'hacking' here? YayView sort of exploited the system by automatically creating users from freely available data on the social networks, but is it 'hacking' per se? I think that YayView is not a hacker company, and just a startup using very unethical business tactics. IMHO, term `hacking` is used everywhere to raise `click-bait-itness`, no matter it fits there or not. </rant>

zazpowered 11y ago
Growth hacker and hacker are very different things
- bottled_poe 11y ago
  These roles look suspiciously like more traditional "business development manager" and "software developer" but I guess those titles weren't trendy enough so we hacked role titles and now everyone gets to be a "hacker".
  - qubex 11y ago
    ”Growth hacker” is a term a marketer came up with to market marketers.
  - trymas 11y ago
    +1 exactly. There is business development, though if there is a article which title has 'developer' in it, it does mean `a software developer` mostly, unless you read a particular business development article. Though `growth hacking`, personally, I think is made up buzzword, for some managers to feel good and cool, that they are like the hacker from 90s. Startup growth falls under `business development and management` in my head, not under `(growth) hacking`.
digbyloftus 11y ago
Hacker in this context means someone who quickly and cheaply creates new things, as in "it's hacked together". Like how we're on Hacker News, it's not a security website, it's a website for people interested in startup news. Growth hacking basically means any form of growth that doesn't come from a fat marketing budget or traditional brand growing methods. I definitely think their method counts.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

logicallee 11y ago

While independently, I studied the field of ethics quite seriously. Since the title uses the word "unethical" it is important to realize that ethics isn't just a matter of opinion. Without getting deeper into the field, it's fair to say that on the basis of this article (I have no personal opinion, the author's article is the first I heard of this app) I consider the behavior outlined highly ethical. In particular the author notes: "Serena, my friend, is a heavy View user already" Which implies to me that the app brings great benefits to its users. An example of a clearly unethical growth hack is if the result of using the app was detrimental to its users, for example if the goal of the app were to start getting its users to start smoking cigarettes through inventing a fake impression that friends were doing so. While a point of debate, it is not so controversial to argue that actions should be judged at least in part on the basis of their likely outcomes, and the author shows that the outcome here is positive for people. Naturally there are grey areas but on the whole the article does not seem to prove the title. I have no interest in or disclaimer to make on this subject and clicked through for the same reason everyone else did, to see an example of unethical growth hacking. I don't believe I did see one.

rvense 11y ago
There's absolutely no question that this is unethical. I put images and information online because I want to share them with my friends. TOS and legalities aside, that does not mean I want businesses to scrape it and use it to roll out the fake profile astroturf. I don't care how much benefit their app might bring to me. Let me seek it out on my own. Don't sneak your way into my mailbox, and most certainly don't make it look like you've some sort of semi-official relationship with my school or teachers.
- logicallee 11y ago
  Cigarettes are immoral in my opinion despite extremely clear warning labels (which are on them due to government mandate) and nothing that would trip the moral filters expressed in the article. If you don't think consequences matter, you're welcome to your view. I happen to have a different view of morals and ethics, and one that I studied to attain.
11y ago

bakhy 11y ago

totally unethical, i agree. the part about the investment really surprised me. do investors have a responsibility to study the legality of that which they are supporting with their capital?

mathgeek 11y ago
> do investors have a responsibility to study the legality of that which they are supporting with their capital? Perhaps, but we all know there is plenty of money to be had for a company that toes the line in terms of legality. "This may be illegal" is not the same as it being so.
- TeMPOraL 11y ago
  Especially that throwing investor money at lawyers to ensure laws aren't enforced can be sometimes a viable strategy for a company trying to disrupt an existing market - like, say, transportation.
jacquesm 11y ago
Yes, investors (or rather, their lawyers) do legal due diligence. Even so the company investing may have overlooked this and then there is still the duty of the company to inform their investors prior to investing of any legal issues. It's complex, especially when there are multiple jurisdictions involved, the laws on these subjects tend to vary from place to place. Another complication is that (like many things during dd) this straddles the line between technology on the one side and legal on the other. If I were to come across it during a dd I'd flag legal to take an in-depth look. (Regardless of it being un-ethical.) Don't be surprised if to the parties investing this was not a red flag and they invested anyway, also don't be surprised if they simply were ignorant of the matter due to time pressure or unfamiliarity with the territory. Not all investments are done after a full process dd.
zephod 11y ago
I wasn't at all surprised to see this is a funded startup -- it's had a lot of effort put into the design and execution, and it just screams desperation to me. I imagine somebody is under a lot of pressure to hit their growth metrics, and they probably convinced themselves that throwing out the rulebook is ok.

spacefight 11y ago

That is not only unethical that is also illegal in some countries. Also, this is the reason why you should have FB platform a) turned off and b) disallow that your friends "bring your data with them when they use apps".

nyc640 11y ago
For anyone curious on how to do this: 1) Click the down arrow (▼) in the top right, then go to 'Settings'. 2) Click 'Apps' in the bar on the left side. 3) Click 'Edit' under 'Apps, Websites, and Plugins' then 'Turn Off' 4) Click 'Edit' under 'Apps Others Use' and uncheck everything, then 'Save'.
- Cub3 11y ago
  Thanks, just did this, really useful info :)
- joeconway 11y ago
  Thank you.

coldcode 11y ago

This app also violate numerous App Store rules, but getting Apple to do something about it takes an act of Congress. Still you hope someone at Apple reads Hacker News.

natch 11y ago
Fortunately, in case Congress is out of session, they do have a URL that can help: https://reportaproblem.apple.com https://reportaproblem.apple.com
rmc 11y ago
And I thought the App Store review process was there to catch these sorts of violations?
AJ007 11y ago
They are also breaking CAN SPAM by sending deceptive emails. It is pretty cut and dry that the email claims X, but that feature is no where to be found - at least based on what is written. Tagged.com did a very similar thing to get users to sign up, and they had to pay over $1 million in fines back in 2009. This in itself may not be a big disincentive for many companies, but the consequences if it is done after a settlement are.

quantumpotato_ 11y ago

Well, that's what happen when you use Facebook..

natch 11y ago

Searching for YayView on the app store, nothing comes up. To find the app, search for these keywords: view meet your classmates A possible connection to an app called Highlight is further indicated by the fact that the AWS landing page for the View app contains the string highlig.ht. Any App Store user can report a problem with an app by first downloading the app (no need to actually run it, and it can't do any damage without being run), then visiting https://reportaproblem.apple.com https://reportaproblem.apple.com and signing in. The app will appear at the top of the list of downloaded apps, and next to the app is a "Report a Problem" button.

Flow 11y ago
> no need to actually run it, and it can't do any damage without being run How sure about this are you? Some common apps like Hangout and Facebook misuse iOS features to run in the background despite Background App Refresh is turned off, AFAIK.
- jayvanguard 11y ago
  Up to iOS 7 at least, there was no way to run in the background without the app being launched at least once. I haven't worked with the latest two versions though.
- natch 11y ago
  iOS developer here. Pretty damn sure. All the ways I know of for running code in the background, and I've looked at this quite a bit, require at least one launch for them to be enabled.
- mikeash 11y ago
  Which features, exactly? The only one I'm aware of is marking the app as a VoIP app, which means the system will keep it alive and let it occasionally check in with the mothership. But Apple heavily scrutinized apps marked as such to make sure they actually need it. And even then, I don't think they run until the user starts them at least once. Even if the app could automatically run on download, it couldn't access any interesting information without being activated by the user and prompting to allow access to location, contacts, photos, etc.

richerlariviere 11y ago

I would be curious to capture all the network requests done by this app. Maybe we didn't see all the iceberg.

sidcool 11y ago

This reminds of an app that made reservations on your behalf in restaurants. The unethical part was that it made fake reservations before hand (with fake names) and then auctioned the name.

rmc 11y ago

And you wonder why the European Courts have started to strongly enforce the right to data protection. Us in the tech world need to be honest, we're bad at privacy.

Mahn 11y ago
See, I don't get this. Europe is acting as if it had a duty to protect its people from the bad companies that steal your privacy while you sleep, whereas in reality nothing happens if you don't explicitly give consent first. Don't want Facebook to use your personal data to sell you ads? Don't put it on Facebook. Don't want YayView to access your location at all times? Then don't give it access to it, it's asking you right there, even if it's being shady about it. It's a little bit like if people had trouble using forks without stabbing themselves, and the proposed solution was to ban all forks in the country. Well perhaps more work should go towards teaching people how to use a fork, since they can be useful for meals, rather than banning them? Don't get me wrong, it's a shame that companies like YayView exploit dark patterns to trick people into doing things they don't fully understand, but let's not ban all the things because of it.
- Beltiras 11y ago
  I want to live in a world where I don't need to worry about my information being disclosed by a third party. The world you propose is one where there is a chilling effect on sharing anything with anyone.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  That's totally wrong headed. They have deliberately deceived people into accepting prompts and neglected to give them all the facts. That's deception through omission, clear and simple.
  - Mahn 11y ago
    I'm not saying they are not to blame, just that more work should be done in teaching the end user that they cannot trust everything they are told, much like in real life.

jv22222 11y ago

I guess a good term to describe this is - dark hat growth hacking.

EGreg 11y ago

"View scans its user’s Facebook friends for other students, and creates fake View profiles that anybody can edit, " "This is never disclosed to the user" I thought that the Facebook API no longer exposed ANY friend info to apps, without special permission that the user grants! And that permission has to be reviewed by facebook.

the_watcher 11y ago

Won't View just get their Facebook authorization yanked now that this has come out? This is sort of a worst use possible in terms of disclosure and user-privacy to Facebook.