5 ms·

(1) Video surveillance is used everywhere on police cars, traffic lights, etc. It's cheap, practical and can work at (2) Tires already have serial numbers. (TIN

(1) Video surveillance is used everywhere on police cars, traffic lights, etc. It's cheap, practical and can work at (2) Tires already have serial numbers. (TIN). I don't know if they track these numbers when tired are installed or not, but if they do, then RFID just makes the job faster. If that is your concern, pay cash for tires and install them yourself in your garage. (3) RFID would be REALLY hard to do as you are driving down the road. It takes time to power up the RFID tag, send it a message, and get a response. I found a reference of 300 milliseconds for a reading. That's IF you are two inches away, and the object is NOT moving. If the tag is at the edge of the tire (as the picture implies) - where are you going to put the reader so that it can get within 2 inches of the tire? And how can it read the tag at 40 miles an hour, when the tag is spinning around the edge of the tire? If the sensor is embedded in the road, you have to drive directly OVER it, and the tag has to be at the bottom of the tire, and the car has to be driving very very slow. That's assuming the sensor and the power cable will survive being embedded in asphalt. A sensor near the edge of the road would be too far away to get a reading, If someone can get within 2 inches of your tires while you are driving 40 miles an hour, you have other things to worry about.

gpvos 11y ago
Traffic lights, parking places, traffic jams, there are still many possibilities.
cobookman 11y ago
> That's IF you are two inches away, and the object is NOT moving. If the tag is at the edge of the tire (as the picture implies) - where are you going to put the reader so that it can get within 2 inches of the tire? 900Mhz RFID tags can be read from over 30ft away. Can't find a video but someone @ defcon was able to get a read from 250ft away using a yagi antenna & power way over the FCC limits.
- grymoire1 11y ago
  Yes, but there's a big difference between a one-time demo under ideal conditions, and something that can be mass-produced and used daily. In the case of tires, (1) the car is likely moving, (2) the tires are spinning at the same time, (3) there are 4 tires (at least - not to mention shoes, credit cards, etc.) and all RFID tags of the same frequency will respond to the reader at the same time, making it very difficult to capture the ID of a single tag. There is no collision avoidance in the transmission. Yes, I'm sure some special technology can be developed that can track and follow a single car as it travels down a road, and isolate the tags, but the police already use ANPR to identify amber alerts, stolen vehicles, unpaid fines, etc. ANPR systems cost under $200, and some (according to Wikipedia) will work even if the car is traveling at 120 MPH. It makes no sense to attempt to use RFID for tracking cars.
  - cobookman 11y ago
    > and all RFID tags of the same frequency will respond to the reader at the same time Depends on the tag design. Using Q Values you can avoid the collisions to some extend. http://www.rfidsb.com/anticipating-your-starting-point-with-the-q-value/ http://www.rfidsb.com/anticipating-your-starting-point-with-... Not sure how much the spinning tires distort signals...etc. Def out of my scope of knowledge. > It makes no sense to attempt to use RFID for tracking cars. Agreed, grabbing license plates makes more sense.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
marcosdumay 11y ago
That's true, with standard readers. Point is, one can still read those tags in 40 mph, by the side of the road or further away. All that is needed is creating the device to the task, instead of getting one pre-made from Alibaba. Yes, that'd be a hell of a device (digital post-processing of signal, directional antenna, powerful transmitter), still pretty much doable and not even hard to hide. As they say at the thread. Pretty much everything has an rfid tag nowadays. Each tag alone is not enough to track a person, but one does not need many of them for an individual signature - 3, maybe 4. Maybe we should add portable high power microwave transmitters to our usual set of home supplies.
js2 11y ago
RFID tags are used to track runner progress during road races. Runners wear a paper bib usually on the front of their shirt which has an RFID tag on its back side. The runners will cross over timing mats at least at the start and finish (sometimes the RFID sensors are overhead, but in either case are several feet from the tag). This is used to fairly reliably track thousands of runners moving at 5-12 mph (more or less). I realize that's a far cry from a car moving tens of mph, but modern RFID tech works better than you are claiming.
flackFlunky 11y ago
Your comment is obvious flack with a motive. You are forum sliding. Your comment neglects the following all-too-obvious points: 1. Video surveillance of an embossed number on a black tire is difficult. 2. Parked cars remain vulnerable to passive tracking. 3. 300 milliseconds for a reading is not a long time. 4. Range/distance can be compensated for with wattage. 5. Proximity can be compensated for with many more sensors. 6. Unlimited budgets can cure all your counter-points. 7. A focused effort on an individual can operate invisibly with this. 8. These details transcend license plates and VIN numbers. 9. We know that for points A & B, the metadata relating them, is valuable. 10. Traveling from point A to point B, regardless of what happens in transit, is more often the sought-after data.
- AnkhMorporkian 11y ago
  How the hell is that forum sliding? Forum sliding is where you post things unrelated to a topic on a bunch of fake accounts to get it off the front page of a forum, not saying "this isn't really a big deal."

gpvos 11y ago

Traffic lights, parking places, traffic jams, there are still many possibilities.

cobookman 11y ago

> That's IF you are two inches away, and the object is NOT moving. If the tag is at the edge of the tire (as the picture implies) - where are you going to put the reader so that it can get within 2 inches of the tire? 900Mhz RFID tags can be read from over 30ft away. Can't find a video but someone @ defcon was able to get a read from 250ft away using a yagi antenna & power way over the FCC limits.

grymoire1 11y ago
Yes, but there's a big difference between a one-time demo under ideal conditions, and something that can be mass-produced and used daily. In the case of tires, (1) the car is likely moving, (2) the tires are spinning at the same time, (3) there are 4 tires (at least - not to mention shoes, credit cards, etc.) and all RFID tags of the same frequency will respond to the reader at the same time, making it very difficult to capture the ID of a single tag. There is no collision avoidance in the transmission. Yes, I'm sure some special technology can be developed that can track and follow a single car as it travels down a road, and isolate the tags, but the police already use ANPR to identify amber alerts, stolen vehicles, unpaid fines, etc. ANPR systems cost under $200, and some (according to Wikipedia) will work even if the car is traveling at 120 MPH. It makes no sense to attempt to use RFID for tracking cars.
- cobookman 11y ago
  > and all RFID tags of the same frequency will respond to the reader at the same time Depends on the tag design. Using Q Values you can avoid the collisions to some extend. http://www.rfidsb.com/anticipating-your-starting-point-with-the-q-value/ http://www.rfidsb.com/anticipating-your-starting-point-with-... Not sure how much the spinning tires distort signals...etc. Def out of my scope of knowledge. > It makes no sense to attempt to use RFID for tracking cars. Agreed, grabbing license plates makes more sense.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

marcosdumay 11y ago

That's true, with standard readers. Point is, one can still read those tags in 40 mph, by the side of the road or further away. All that is needed is creating the device to the task, instead of getting one pre-made from Alibaba. Yes, that'd be a hell of a device (digital post-processing of signal, directional antenna, powerful transmitter), still pretty much doable and not even hard to hide. As they say at the thread. Pretty much everything has an rfid tag nowadays. Each tag alone is not enough to track a person, but one does not need many of them for an individual signature - 3, maybe 4. Maybe we should add portable high power microwave transmitters to our usual set of home supplies.

js2 11y ago

RFID tags are used to track runner progress during road races. Runners wear a paper bib usually on the front of their shirt which has an RFID tag on its back side. The runners will cross over timing mats at least at the start and finish (sometimes the RFID sensors are overhead, but in either case are several feet from the tag). This is used to fairly reliably track thousands of runners moving at 5-12 mph (more or less). I realize that's a far cry from a car moving tens of mph, but modern RFID tech works better than you are claiming.

flackFlunky 11y ago

Your comment is obvious flack with a motive. You are forum sliding. Your comment neglects the following all-too-obvious points: 1. Video surveillance of an embossed number on a black tire is difficult. 2. Parked cars remain vulnerable to passive tracking. 3. 300 milliseconds for a reading is not a long time. 4. Range/distance can be compensated for with wattage. 5. Proximity can be compensated for with many more sensors. 6. Unlimited budgets can cure all your counter-points. 7. A focused effort on an individual can operate invisibly with this. 8. These details transcend license plates and VIN numbers. 9. We know that for points A & B, the metadata relating them, is valuable. 10. Traveling from point A to point B, regardless of what happens in transit, is more often the sought-after data.

AnkhMorporkian 11y ago
How the hell is that forum sliding? Forum sliding is where you post things unrelated to a topic on a bunch of fake accounts to get it off the front page of a forum, not saying "this isn't really a big deal."