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To be fair, the very first section of the StubHub user agreement warns about this scenario: "1. Using StubHub Ticket Marketplace. StubHub is a marketplace th

by whack 11y ago

To be fair, the very first section of the StubHub user agreement warns about this scenario: "1. Using StubHub Ticket Marketplace. StubHub is a marketplace that allows users to buy ("Buyers") and sell ("Sellers") tickets, related passes and merchandise or other goods (collectively, the "tickets") for events. As a marketplace, StubHub does not own the tickets on the Site nor does it set prices for tickets. Because sellers set ticket prices, they may be higher than face value. While StubHub may provide pricing, shipping, listing and other guidance in our Services, such guidance is solely informational and you may decide to follow it or not. Also, while we may help facilitate the resolution of disputes and provide the FanProtect Guarantee, StubHub has no control over and does not guarantee the existence, quality, safety or legality of the items advertised; the truth or accuracy of the user's content or listings; the ability of Sellers to sell tickets or Buyers to pay for them; or that a Buyer or Seller will complete a transaction." The takeaway from this seems to be that: 1. StubHub should be more transparent about the seller-side risks involved when "selling tickets" to customers. 2. Buyers should be more aware of the fact that Stubhub is only a marketplace, and they are really at the mercy of the seller. 3. Given StubHub's policy above, anyone who wants a guaranteed ticket should never ever use StubHub.

mikeash 11y ago
That's just ridiculous. Nobody reads user agreements, everybody knows nobody reads user agreements, and pretty much everybody expects that if you purchase something through a company, that company is responsible for delivering. You can't reasonably set up a marketplace, be the middleman for buying and selling, then throw up your hands and say "sucks to be you" when the product you advertise doesn't get delivered to buyers. This might be legal, but it is completely nuts, and the existence of a "we're completely nuts" clause in the user agreement doesn't mitigate that.
- whack 11y ago
  Hence my 1st takeaway: "StubHub should be more transparent about the seller-side risks involved when "selling tickets" to customers"
  - mikeash 11y ago
    My whole point is that no matter how transparent the "sucks to be you" clause is, it's still a terrible way to run things and they should stop disclaiming responsibility.
- soneca 11y ago
  Not sure you can hold a marketplace to the same standards of a company delivering its own product. I don't need to reed any user agreement to know that. And Stubhub is clearly a marketplace. I would assume this site is just the same as eBay or Airbnb. I know that are some responsibilities of a marketplace, but I also know that I'm ultimately trusting the other transaction part (not the marketplace). If I think this risk is too high, I don't use a marketplace (personally, I never bought anything through eBay or equivalents myself precisely because of this).
  - QuotedForTruth 11y ago
    This would be fine if they weren't advertising a "Fan Protect Guarantee." They are offering additional safe guards or at least the appearance of them to encourage buyers to take on that risk. It is extremely shady when they then don't follow through.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      They technically did follow through. Their guarantee is to provide comparable tickets or a refund. Comparable tickets were not available (because their idea of "comparable" includes "at the same price," ha ha ha) and they provided a refund.
      - Dylan16807 11y ago
        They did not follow through on actually protecting the fans, just restoring the original money. They are presenting the appearance that they will ensure the purchase, while the terms actually promise no such thing.
        mikeash 11y ago
        Yeah, the "Fan Protect Guarantee" is more like "Fan Protect Guarantee Unless The Price Goes Up A Lot."
        11y ago
- curun1r 11y ago
  The buyer made the mistake of thinking he was dealing with StubHub rather than the seller. If he had been smart, he would have asked asked StubHub for the seller's details with the comment that he would be filing suit against either StubHub or the seller. StubHub is a marketplace and sellers frequently sell tickets they don't own. This works out because tickets frequently drop in price shortly before the game and, for the times that they don't, sellers usually eat the loss. But this seller decided not to deliver and, for that, they should be sued. The equivalent in the stock market would be to short a stock and then not pay up when the stock quadrupled. Given that the value of the loss suffered by the buyer is roughly $5k ($6k tickets less ~$k credit at StubHub), it's a good candidate for small claims court.
  - mbcrower 11y ago
    Based on the customer service emails it looks like StubHub knew full well what was going on and aided the seller in pulling out of the agreement.
    - slg 11y ago
      Sellers are a much smaller group and more in demand commodity than buyers. I would venture a guess that sites like Stubhub will generally favor the seller over the buyer in any dispute. That is the basis of this policy and exactly what happened in this instance.
    - GigabyteCoin 11y ago
      Of course they knew what was going on. A seller "made a mistake" in listing the tickets, thus the tickets didn't actually exist in StubHub's eyes and they were forced to cancel the transaction. It is impossible to know if the seller is telling the truth in this situation or not. Everybody makes mistakes, this seller just claims to have made a more costly one than usual. StubHub is a marketplace, they can't investigate every time somebody claims to have made a mistake in listing their tickets. IF the seller re-listed the exact same seats for a higher price once the original order was cancelled, I could see how StubHub could easily call out the fraudster and ban them from using their site... but even then the seller could just sign up using another credit card and a friend's address.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
QuotedForTruth 11y ago
They also have the following policy for sellers: "If your tickets have sold but you cannot fulfill the order (also referred to as 'dropping a sale' or a 'dropped sale'), StubHub may charge your payment method an amount equal to 20% of the price of the ticket sold to compensate us for the losses we incur to meet our obligations under the FanProtectTM Guarantee. In some cases involving dropped sales that result in unusually large losses to StubHub (for example, dropped sales involving large numbers of tickets or tickets with significant price appreciation), however, StubHub reserves the right in its sole discretion to charge your payment method the full amount of the replacement costs StubHub incurs under the FanProtectTM Guarantee (including costs in excess of 20% of the ticket price)." They have given themselves the ability to make this right and go after the seller for the costs of it, but they are choosing not to, screwing the buyer instead. They will of course happily pocket this 20% fee and the additional higher fees on the eventual sale of the tickets at the higher price, whether on this account or another (if the seller is banned). "2. Buyers should be more aware of the fact that Stubhub is only a marketplace, and they are really at the mercy of the seller." Why should buyers be aware of this when Stubhub advertises a "FanProtectTM Guarantee"?! Stubhub shouldn't be advertising one thing on nearly every page of their website and then disclaiming in their TOS. Also, Stubhub has come out to say that they'll get this guy to the game. No mention of changing policy to make sure it doesn't happen again though. https://twitter.com/StubHub/status/684906796813697024 https://twitter.com/StubHub/status/684906796813697024?
- michaelt 11y ago
  They have given themselves the ability to make this right and go after the seller for the costs of it, but they are choosing not to, screwing the buyer instead. You're right in general, but just to nitpick: If there are only 100 real tickets to an event, and 110 tickets have been promised by StubHub, 10 customers will go without tickets regardless of StubHub's willingness to pay the market rate for extra tickets.
  - encoderer 11y ago
    In practice this is not how markets work. More tickets become available, even if just arb from earlier buyers, as the price increases. And regardless it's not what happened here.
6stringmerc 11y ago
If you read the fine print on the Seller's TOC regarding a "dropped sale" the only reason that such a situation is permitted is because the seller "cannot" furnish the tickets. In my reasoning, being unwilling (i.e. "will not") to fulfill a transaction is entirely different than being unable to fulfill a transaction (i.e. "can not") and I'd hope that pounding StubHub and the seller would be a really easy avenue for a skilled lawyer. If this has happened before, and for large sums of money, I'd be curious if there's enough people interested to make it a class action. Remember, if you can buy through the venue, buy through the venue.

by whack 11y ago

mikeash 11y ago

That's just ridiculous. Nobody reads user agreements, everybody knows nobody reads user agreements, and pretty much everybody expects that if you purchase something through a company, that company is responsible for delivering. You can't reasonably set up a marketplace, be the middleman for buying and selling, then throw up your hands and say "sucks to be you" when the product you advertise doesn't get delivered to buyers. This might be legal, but it is completely nuts, and the existence of a "we're completely nuts" clause in the user agreement doesn't mitigate that.

whack 11y ago
Hence my 1st takeaway: "StubHub should be more transparent about the seller-side risks involved when "selling tickets" to customers"
- mikeash 11y ago
  My whole point is that no matter how transparent the "sucks to be you" clause is, it's still a terrible way to run things and they should stop disclaiming responsibility.
soneca 11y ago
Not sure you can hold a marketplace to the same standards of a company delivering its own product. I don't need to reed any user agreement to know that. And Stubhub is clearly a marketplace. I would assume this site is just the same as eBay or Airbnb. I know that are some responsibilities of a marketplace, but I also know that I'm ultimately trusting the other transaction part (not the marketplace). If I think this risk is too high, I don't use a marketplace (personally, I never bought anything through eBay or equivalents myself precisely because of this).
- QuotedForTruth 11y ago
  This would be fine if they weren't advertising a "Fan Protect Guarantee." They are offering additional safe guards or at least the appearance of them to encourage buyers to take on that risk. It is extremely shady when they then don't follow through.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    They technically did follow through. Their guarantee is to provide comparable tickets or a refund. Comparable tickets were not available (because their idea of "comparable" includes "at the same price," ha ha ha) and they provided a refund.
    - Dylan16807 11y ago
      They did not follow through on actually protecting the fans, just restoring the original money. They are presenting the appearance that they will ensure the purchase, while the terms actually promise no such thing.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        Yeah, the "Fan Protect Guarantee" is more like "Fan Protect Guarantee Unless The Price Goes Up A Lot."
        11y ago
curun1r 11y ago
The buyer made the mistake of thinking he was dealing with StubHub rather than the seller. If he had been smart, he would have asked asked StubHub for the seller's details with the comment that he would be filing suit against either StubHub or the seller. StubHub is a marketplace and sellers frequently sell tickets they don't own. This works out because tickets frequently drop in price shortly before the game and, for the times that they don't, sellers usually eat the loss. But this seller decided not to deliver and, for that, they should be sued. The equivalent in the stock market would be to short a stock and then not pay up when the stock quadrupled. Given that the value of the loss suffered by the buyer is roughly $5k ($6k tickets less ~$k credit at StubHub), it's a good candidate for small claims court.
- mbcrower 11y ago
  Based on the customer service emails it looks like StubHub knew full well what was going on and aided the seller in pulling out of the agreement.
  - slg 11y ago
    Sellers are a much smaller group and more in demand commodity than buyers. I would venture a guess that sites like Stubhub will generally favor the seller over the buyer in any dispute. That is the basis of this policy and exactly what happened in this instance.
  - GigabyteCoin 11y ago
    Of course they knew what was going on. A seller "made a mistake" in listing the tickets, thus the tickets didn't actually exist in StubHub's eyes and they were forced to cancel the transaction. It is impossible to know if the seller is telling the truth in this situation or not. Everybody makes mistakes, this seller just claims to have made a more costly one than usual. StubHub is a marketplace, they can't investigate every time somebody claims to have made a mistake in listing their tickets. IF the seller re-listed the exact same seats for a higher price once the original order was cancelled, I could see how StubHub could easily call out the fraudster and ban them from using their site... but even then the seller could just sign up using another credit card and a friend's address.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

QuotedForTruth 11y ago

They also have the following policy for sellers: "If your tickets have sold but you cannot fulfill the order (also referred to as 'dropping a sale' or a 'dropped sale'), StubHub may charge your payment method an amount equal to 20% of the price of the ticket sold to compensate us for the losses we incur to meet our obligations under the FanProtectTM Guarantee. In some cases involving dropped sales that result in unusually large losses to StubHub (for example, dropped sales involving large numbers of tickets or tickets with significant price appreciation), however, StubHub reserves the right in its sole discretion to charge your payment method the full amount of the replacement costs StubHub incurs under the FanProtectTM Guarantee (including costs in excess of 20% of the ticket price)." They have given themselves the ability to make this right and go after the seller for the costs of it, but they are choosing not to, screwing the buyer instead. They will of course happily pocket this 20% fee and the additional higher fees on the eventual sale of the tickets at the higher price, whether on this account or another (if the seller is banned). "2. Buyers should be more aware of the fact that Stubhub is only a marketplace, and they are really at the mercy of the seller." Why should buyers be aware of this when Stubhub advertises a "FanProtectTM Guarantee"?! Stubhub shouldn't be advertising one thing on nearly every page of their website and then disclaiming in their TOS. Also, Stubhub has come out to say that they'll get this guy to the game. No mention of changing policy to make sure it doesn't happen again though. https://twitter.com/StubHub/status/684906796813697024 https://twitter.com/StubHub/status/684906796813697024?

michaelt 11y ago
They have given themselves the ability to make this right and go after the seller for the costs of it, but they are choosing not to, screwing the buyer instead. You're right in general, but just to nitpick: If there are only 100 real tickets to an event, and 110 tickets have been promised by StubHub, 10 customers will go without tickets regardless of StubHub's willingness to pay the market rate for extra tickets.
- encoderer 11y ago
  In practice this is not how markets work. More tickets become available, even if just arb from earlier buyers, as the price increases. And regardless it's not what happened here.

6stringmerc 11y ago

If you read the fine print on the Seller's TOC regarding a "dropped sale" the only reason that such a situation is permitted is because the seller "cannot" furnish the tickets. In my reasoning, being unwilling (i.e. "will not") to fulfill a transaction is entirely different than being unable to fulfill a transaction (i.e. "can not") and I'd hope that pounding StubHub and the seller would be a really easy avenue for a skilled lawyer. If this has happened before, and for large sums of money, I'd be curious if there's enough people interested to make it a class action. Remember, if you can buy through the venue, buy through the venue.