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I spent my holiday break shifting my alignment 2 or 3 points towards Stallmanism. The existence/collection of statistics like this increase my confidence in tha

I spent my holiday break shifting my alignment 2 or 3 points towards Stallmanism. The existence/collection of statistics like this increase my confidence in that choice. Between Windows privacy craziness and Apple's continuing lockdown of OSX (I think that System Integrity Protection augurs an iOS-like walled-garden future for OSX), I recently switched all of my OSX/Windows/Ubuntu systems to Arch Linux; it takes some tweaking and setup and a bit of command line hacking, but it's really awesome to have all my machines doing my bidding -- I tell them what to run, when/what to update, and I'm in control of synchronizing settings/files between them. With Windows/OSX (and Ubuntu to a lesser degree, which I'd used previously), you can only kind of hope that it does what you want, and when it doesn't work, you kind of bang on it a bit to try and get it to change its behavior. All the while, the computer is doing a large number of things you don't really want it to do (what are all these processes? why is it connecting to x.y.domain.net? what data is it sending? why does it insist on trying to get me to log in to XXCloudY? I don't want to use that), but which you're kind of powerless to stop (aside from e.g. blocking connections with another physical network device), even if you knew what was happening. But you don't.

dimman 11y ago
joke Let's hope you won't get systemd'd now instead end joke
- tremon 11y ago
  It's a sad state of affairs that these tags are perceived mandatory even here.
  - solidninja 11y ago
    Even so, having systemd installed on your system is infinitely better from the perspective of software freedom than having Windows 10 installed.
agentultra 11y ago
I went the other way around. I started with your conclusions and have been migrating to the Apple ecosystem and am tempted to move to Windows. I had become tired of the dearth of issues that crop up to maintain an Arch desktop distribution. While the privacy collection issues should be addressed and be transparent to end-users I think open source is not the way to go for these devices. I'm tired of each device being an island. I like handing off calls from my phone to my laptop when I'm at work. It began frustrating me years ago when I couldn't just flick a few files off of my e-reader to a friend's phone despite the prevalence of available networks. Open-source, meanwhile, has struggled to provide a basic desktop environment to rival the best from five years ago. It's simply too much work without a paid, focused, and highly-skilled product team consisting of more than just developers. And they're still fighting the chicken-and-egg problem of user-adoption. I don't like the spyware "features," but I don't think I'll be going back to Linux any time soon and giving up all the great software I've come to depend on. I'm hopeful that people will find ways to invest in its development and find a way to introduce a competing product that is both secure, in the control of the user, and a delight to use -- able to integrate with a plethora of devices and, for the most part, just work.
- rms_returns 11y ago
  > Open-source, meanwhile, has struggled to provide a basic desktop environment to rival the best from five years ago. Open-source is pretty young on the desktop arena. Consider that Microsoft ruled the entire nineties and tried all tricks in the book to sabotage linux. Despite this, the fact that linux desktops are even available today is nothing short of a miracle! IMHO, the GNOME and Unity desktops are mature enough to handle 90% of users' needs, the only exception is gaming but that gap is also rapidly getting filled. > It's simply too much work without a paid, focused, and highly-skilled product team consisting of more than just developers. Consider that the OS that powers all kinds of devices from satellites to embedded devices is Linux, an open-source project where payment isn't a top-priority for developers, but merit is! > And they're still fighting the chicken-and-egg problem of user-adoption. All endeavors are like that, not just software projects. More the user participation, better the product focus and development. > I don't like the spyware "features," but I don't think I'll be going back to Linux any time soon and giving up all the great software I've come to depend on. Can you cite a single widely used software that doesn't have a FOSS alternative which works on Linux. Unless you are heavily dependent of Microsoft Excel worksheets and their arcane proprietary macros, I don't see a reason not to switch (besides just being lethargic to learn something new).
caskance 11y ago
Complain about the feature all you want, but pretending that it's not well documented or configurable is just silly. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...
- dantillberg 11y ago
  Microsoft is pretty good at catering to the desires of enterprises, so you're right, but in the linked article I see at [0] that with a typical consumer license of Windows, I can reduce the "telemetry" level, but only to "Basic" from the default level of "Enhanced" (side note: how is it "enhanced" if it's the default?). While the Enhanced level accounts for a lot of the usage-specific statistics detailed in TFA, Basic still sends a lot of valuable data to Microsoft. And, despite paying for Windows, you can't turn it off unless you get an Enterprise/Academic license. [0]: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx#BKMK_UTC https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...
  - serge2k 11y ago
    That list looks less like valuable user data and more like basic telemetry data that is mostly useful to anyone trying to provide a good OS experience.
    - dantillberg 11y ago
      I did intentionally write "valuable" instead of "intrusive," as you're right -- that is very useful data to aid Microsoft in developing Windows. But as a user, I ought to be able to at least opt out. But typical Windows users cannot, even if they might think that they are by downgrading from Enhanced to Basic.
      - caskance 11y ago
        I think the fact that they call it "basic" rather than "none" makes it abundantly clear that some basic data is still being collected, and you're not completely opting out. Surely there's a limit on how stupid a user can be before you're allowed to stop designing for them.
sdegutis 11y ago
I've been trying to switch to (Arch) Linux -- away from OS X -- for a few years now, with no luck. Mostly because the only hardware I have is Apple hardware, which is notorious to get working with Linux drivers as good as it is with built-in Apple drivers. That's the main thing stopping me from making the full switch. And using Linux inside a VM isn't ideal either, it's kind of the worst of both worlds.
- dantillberg 11y ago
  I did have fair share of trouble with my own apple hardware. My mid-2010 mac mini required me to create a modified ISO with EFI booting disabled, and it took me a while to figure out how to get sound working on the HDMI output; my old macbook pro has kernel panics on startup that I never figured out, and my new macbook had trouble getting wifi set up; and I have yet to configure the trackpad to get it to work the way I want it to. There are a lot of other people that have struggled through issues, though, and so the bbs.archlinux.org forums and the wiki docs are helpful, but I had to do a fair amount of trial and error and figuring stuff out myself to get what I did running. I'm currently using custom-built desktop systems (which run arch linux like a dream; most everything just worked out of the box) for most of my daily work, though, and my longer-term plan is to sell off my mac hardware and replace it with hardware that runs linux with less fuss.
Fuxy 11y ago
Arch Linux is not exactly ideal for security and it requires too much technical knowledge to offer privacy for the masses. The unfortunate reality is that non technical uses will never achieve the same level of privacy and security as technical ones. I personally feel like I have no choice Windows is collecting way too much data for me to be conformable using and Apple is just a benevolent dictator for now it can change its mind at any point and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it so I see Linux as the only choice. Not to mention that most development tools i use these days are way easier to use on Linux then on Windows. If I need Photoshop or some software that only runs in Windows I can always run them in a VM.
- Alupis 11y ago
  > If I need Photoshop or some software that only runs in Windows I can always run them in a VM Or try running it in PlayOnLinux (a very good WINE wrapper). It supports all of CS6 and also Creative Cloud installs on Linux.[1] [1] https://www.playonlinux.com/en/app-2316-Adobe_Photoshop_CS6.html https://www.playonlinux.com/en/app-2316-Adobe_Photoshop_CS6....
rpgmaker 11y ago
> I think that System Integrity Protection augurs an iOS-like walled-garden future for OSX I believe they are going down that road too, eventually. They are also going to dump Intel at some point not too far off, which may not matter to many Mac users but it will be significant to the hackintosh crowd.
mikegerwitz 11y ago
It's important to emphasize that Stallman advocates and emphasizes _freedom_. "For privacy's sake, you must avoid nonfree software since, as a consequence of giving others control of your computing, it is likely to spy on you. Avoid service as a software substitute; as well as giving others control of your computing, it requires you to hand over all the pertinent data to the server." https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/surveillance-vs-democracy.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/surveillance-vs-democracy.en.... But free software can still do bad things. RMS is currently discussing (within GNU) standard guidelines for privacy expectations for GNU projects, which I'm encouraged by; once those are released, it'd be a good thing for other non-GNU projects to follow as well.
gcb0 11y ago
yeah, Ubuntu is getting out of hand. but Debian continues to be awesome. though i love Arch's documentation effort, it's just perfect. on another note, i just helped my mom set up an iPhone. try it once with no previous accounts for anything. it's maddening! dozen of EULAs, several different accounts needed for every menial thing, dumb and dumber password restrictions, options to skip useless accounts hidden in the UI...

dimman 11y ago

joke Let's hope you won't get systemd'd now instead end joke

tremon 11y ago
It's a sad state of affairs that these tags are perceived mandatory even here.
- solidninja 11y ago
  Even so, having systemd installed on your system is infinitely better from the perspective of software freedom than having Windows 10 installed.

agentultra 11y ago

I went the other way around. I started with your conclusions and have been migrating to the Apple ecosystem and am tempted to move to Windows. I had become tired of the dearth of issues that crop up to maintain an Arch desktop distribution. While the privacy collection issues should be addressed and be transparent to end-users I think open source is not the way to go for these devices. I'm tired of each device being an island. I like handing off calls from my phone to my laptop when I'm at work. It began frustrating me years ago when I couldn't just flick a few files off of my e-reader to a friend's phone despite the prevalence of available networks. Open-source, meanwhile, has struggled to provide a basic desktop environment to rival the best from five years ago. It's simply too much work without a paid, focused, and highly-skilled product team consisting of more than just developers. And they're still fighting the chicken-and-egg problem of user-adoption. I don't like the spyware "features," but I don't think I'll be going back to Linux any time soon and giving up all the great software I've come to depend on. I'm hopeful that people will find ways to invest in its development and find a way to introduce a competing product that is both secure, in the control of the user, and a delight to use -- able to integrate with a plethora of devices and, for the most part, just work.

rms_returns 11y ago
> Open-source, meanwhile, has struggled to provide a basic desktop environment to rival the best from five years ago. Open-source is pretty young on the desktop arena. Consider that Microsoft ruled the entire nineties and tried all tricks in the book to sabotage linux. Despite this, the fact that linux desktops are even available today is nothing short of a miracle! IMHO, the GNOME and Unity desktops are mature enough to handle 90% of users' needs, the only exception is gaming but that gap is also rapidly getting filled. > It's simply too much work without a paid, focused, and highly-skilled product team consisting of more than just developers. Consider that the OS that powers all kinds of devices from satellites to embedded devices is Linux, an open-source project where payment isn't a top-priority for developers, but merit is! > And they're still fighting the chicken-and-egg problem of user-adoption. All endeavors are like that, not just software projects. More the user participation, better the product focus and development. > I don't like the spyware "features," but I don't think I'll be going back to Linux any time soon and giving up all the great software I've come to depend on. Can you cite a single widely used software that doesn't have a FOSS alternative which works on Linux. Unless you are heavily dependent of Microsoft Excel worksheets and their arcane proprietary macros, I don't see a reason not to switch (besides just being lethargic to learn something new).

caskance 11y ago

Complain about the feature all you want, but pretending that it's not well documented or configurable is just silly. https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...

dantillberg 11y ago
Microsoft is pretty good at catering to the desires of enterprises, so you're right, but in the linked article I see at [0] that with a typical consumer license of Windows, I can reduce the "telemetry" level, but only to "Basic" from the default level of "Enhanced" (side note: how is it "enhanced" if it's the default?). While the Enhanced level accounts for a lot of the usage-specific statistics detailed in TFA, Basic still sends a lot of valuable data to Microsoft. And, despite paying for Windows, you can't turn it off unless you get an Enterprise/Academic license. [0]: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85).aspx#BKMK_UTC https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt577208(v=vs.85...
- serge2k 11y ago
  That list looks less like valuable user data and more like basic telemetry data that is mostly useful to anyone trying to provide a good OS experience.
  - dantillberg 11y ago
    I did intentionally write "valuable" instead of "intrusive," as you're right -- that is very useful data to aid Microsoft in developing Windows. But as a user, I ought to be able to at least opt out. But typical Windows users cannot, even if they might think that they are by downgrading from Enhanced to Basic.
    - caskance 11y ago
      I think the fact that they call it "basic" rather than "none" makes it abundantly clear that some basic data is still being collected, and you're not completely opting out. Surely there's a limit on how stupid a user can be before you're allowed to stop designing for them.

sdegutis 11y ago

I've been trying to switch to (Arch) Linux -- away from OS X -- for a few years now, with no luck. Mostly because the only hardware I have is Apple hardware, which is notorious to get working with Linux drivers as good as it is with built-in Apple drivers. That's the main thing stopping me from making the full switch. And using Linux inside a VM isn't ideal either, it's kind of the worst of both worlds.

dantillberg 11y ago
I did have fair share of trouble with my own apple hardware. My mid-2010 mac mini required me to create a modified ISO with EFI booting disabled, and it took me a while to figure out how to get sound working on the HDMI output; my old macbook pro has kernel panics on startup that I never figured out, and my new macbook had trouble getting wifi set up; and I have yet to configure the trackpad to get it to work the way I want it to. There are a lot of other people that have struggled through issues, though, and so the bbs.archlinux.org forums and the wiki docs are helpful, but I had to do a fair amount of trial and error and figuring stuff out myself to get what I did running. I'm currently using custom-built desktop systems (which run arch linux like a dream; most everything just worked out of the box) for most of my daily work, though, and my longer-term plan is to sell off my mac hardware and replace it with hardware that runs linux with less fuss.

Fuxy 11y ago

Arch Linux is not exactly ideal for security and it requires too much technical knowledge to offer privacy for the masses. The unfortunate reality is that non technical uses will never achieve the same level of privacy and security as technical ones. I personally feel like I have no choice Windows is collecting way too much data for me to be conformable using and Apple is just a benevolent dictator for now it can change its mind at any point and you wouldn't be able to do anything about it so I see Linux as the only choice. Not to mention that most development tools i use these days are way easier to use on Linux then on Windows. If I need Photoshop or some software that only runs in Windows I can always run them in a VM.

Alupis 11y ago
> If I need Photoshop or some software that only runs in Windows I can always run them in a VM Or try running it in PlayOnLinux (a very good WINE wrapper). It supports all of CS6 and also Creative Cloud installs on Linux.[1] [1] https://www.playonlinux.com/en/app-2316-Adobe_Photoshop_CS6.html https://www.playonlinux.com/en/app-2316-Adobe_Photoshop_CS6....

rpgmaker 11y ago

> I think that System Integrity Protection augurs an iOS-like walled-garden future for OSX I believe they are going down that road too, eventually. They are also going to dump Intel at some point not too far off, which may not matter to many Mac users but it will be significant to the hackintosh crowd.

mikegerwitz 11y ago

It's important to emphasize that Stallman advocates and emphasizes _freedom_. "For privacy's sake, you must avoid nonfree software since, as a consequence of giving others control of your computing, it is likely to spy on you. Avoid service as a software substitute; as well as giving others control of your computing, it requires you to hand over all the pertinent data to the server." https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/surveillance-vs-democracy.en.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/surveillance-vs-democracy.en.... But free software can still do bad things. RMS is currently discussing (within GNU) standard guidelines for privacy expectations for GNU projects, which I'm encouraged by; once those are released, it'd be a good thing for other non-GNU projects to follow as well.

gcb0 11y ago

yeah, Ubuntu is getting out of hand. but Debian continues to be awesome. though i love Arch's documentation effort, it's just perfect. on another note, i just helped my mom set up an iPhone. try it once with no previous accounts for anything. it's maddening! dozen of EULAs, several different accounts needed for every menial thing, dumb and dumber password restrictions, options to skip useless accounts hidden in the UI...