7 ms·

Is Linux ready for desktop? tl;dr – NO

21 points by maximveksler 11y ago

IshKebab 11y ago
I'm not sure it's even "ready for the server". I have a server without a monitor I'd like to VNC to. Unfortunately X doesn't start without a physical monitor plugged in because it uses it for autodetection. It's such a silly problem that you can even buy fake "monitor" dongles to plug in to trick X into thinking that there is one. I don't feel like spending money on a software problem so I followed the standard workaround - create a static xorg.conf file. This is very suboptimal because what happens if I later plug in a real monitor? Ok so now X starts. Sort of. Actually lightdm starts and I still can't get X11vnc to connect to the `:0` display. Apparently there is a workaround involving the MIT magic cookie but at this point I've given up. In fact does X even support monitor hot-plugging? Oh and also, if the wifi connection goes down and X isn't running it doesn't automatically reconnect! Wtf? I assume this is because the thing that does the reconnecting is a GUI tool of some sort. Madness.
- phireal 11y ago
  All that sounds more like PEBKAC than anything else. I've had multiple VNC servers running on headless machines for longer than I can remember. Using x11vnc to connect to a VNC server is like SSHing into localhost instead of just opening up a terminal. You're approaching the task the wrong way around. Wifi not reconnecting sounds like your system has a graphical widget handling the network connections. No X = no graphical programs = no network connections.
- exDM69 11y ago
  > In fact does X even support monitor hot-plugging? Yes, it does. It's called XRandR. Not sure how your desktop system handles it, is there a pretty graphical widget or how you configure it, I don't use a desktop GUI, I set it up with the xrandr command line tool (which is more easily repeatable than a GUI, albeit less discoverable). > I assume this is because the thing that does the reconnecting is a GUI tool of some sort. You're probably using network-manager, which is a graphical widget in Gnome (KDE has something similar). There are other methods of setting up Wifi (I use wifi-menu on Arch Linux).
- laumars 11y ago
  In fairness to Linux, you're not actually building a "server" there. A typical server would be running on over ethernet rather than WiFi and on server board with support for remote management (eg IPMI or iLO) which would have mitigated the VNC issues you were having (though anecdotally I've never had any problems running X + VNC on a headless Linux box on the rare occasions I've needed to) But arguments about VNC aside, the vast majority of the time you don't want nor need a GUI running on a server to begin with. Aside maybe some game servers, any Linux server daemon is command line configurable so you're better off saving your RAM and managing your server via SSH (or better yet, Vagrant / Puppet / equivalent) In my experience, Linux is actually very good on servers. But by this I mean "proper" servers. Personally I'd still rather run FreeBSD, but many of the same arguments for and against Linux are applicable for FreeBSD as well.
  - IshKebab 11y ago
    Who says a server can't use wifi? A server is just a computer that primarily provides services to other computers. And who says I don't want to run a GUI? I don't live in the 70s.
- teddyh 11y ago
  > I have a server without a monitor I'd like to VNC to. That’s your problem right there. You can’t (or, rather, don’t) “VNC” to Unix servers. For normal remote access, you use SSH. If you really need to run a graphical X program continuously on a server, you run a virtual X server program like “Xvfb”, and point your graphical X program to that. You can then “VNC” all you like to this virtual X server. All without a monitor or even a graphics card or a mouse on the actual server. This thinking – the idea that a server has something one can refer to as “the” screen, or “the” mouse – is completely and utterly wrong, and betrays a thinking born from Microsoft Windows and other desktop-only-oriented operating systems.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    Microsoft is going to ship a headless version of Windows Server: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt126167.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt126167.aspx
    - osullivj 11y ago
      I had a play with the headless Windows 2016 TP3 on Azure late last year and blogged my experience here [1]. You can even run GUI programs on it; I found it useful to run Sys Internals Process Explorer to track what was really happening with the Containers. Obviously there's no desktop with file explorer etc. [1] https://etrading.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/windows-containers/ https://etrading.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/windows-containers...
    - teddyh 11y ago
      The problem is that all server software written with Windows in mind already assume that their interface is a screen and a mouse, and will try to create a main window, dock icon, and show popups when something happens. How will they work on a headless Windows server?
      - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
        Confused: remote desktop makes any server not headless.
sigsergv 11y ago
Most of points there make sense for power users only. If you need just basic internet station (no gaming, professional video/audio editing etc) then linux works almost perfectly.
- mojuba 11y ago
  Any OS is good for a "basic internet station". Today, a school-age hacker can probably hack together a rudimentary desktop OS for running Chrome and Firefox with no advanced audio/video codecs. But Linux is no school project, in fact as an OS it's almost as mature as Windows in terms of their age. And we all know Linux is quite good, almost unbeatable on the server side. But for the desktop side, there is no excuse for not having your video, audio and networking sorted and polished to death. Improving your battery life or saving internet traffic while on cellular data is not "professional video/audio", it has become pretty much standard computer experience today.
  - downtide 11y ago
    I've a HP Windows 8.1 machine, added an Intel wireless card with Bluetooth. Bluetooth pretty much disappears after a suspend. And networking can sometimes die and only recover after a reboot. The control panels/diagnostics for both networking and bluetooth are also really sucky (and admin in general on 8.1 is pretty horrible). So don't be under the illusion that Windows is any better. Bluetooth, how it works, how to use it on Linux is also an Enigma. And that's been patchy on my Thinkpad, but I haven't had that much of a joyous experience using Bluetooth on any device. In short: 'they' could all try harder.
    - mojuba 11y ago
      Well, to be fair Bluetooth itself is incredibly difficult to deal with on all levels, just like any other committee-driven thing out there. It's a mess that I doubt can ever be fixed. As for WiFi, my experience with Apple devices is mostly positive, or definitely better than on any other platform. So WiFi is quite possible to get right.
humanrebar 11y ago
ChromeOS uses the Linux kernel and works rather well. There is a paragraph dismissing Android as a desktop OS, but ChromeOS (including the Chromebox) is very close to a classic desktop experience, especially if you consider typical consumer use cases.
bmn_ 11y ago
This is a re-submission. Previous discussions: • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812214 (368 comments) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10757785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10757785 (2 comments) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=616146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=616146
- xlm1717 11y ago
  Interesting how people editorialize the title.
  - dang 11y ago
    That's against the site rules, which ask people to use the original title unless it is misleading or linkbait. Submitters: note how that does not say "add more linkbait". https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
onli 11y ago
dang, the title is editorialized (and in bad taste). It was discussed a few days ago with a lots of comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812214
scotty79 11y ago
> Computing-wise that three week vacation turned out to be very relaxing. Machine would suspend and resume without problem, Wi-Fi just worked, audio did not stop working, I spend three weeks without having to recompile the kernel to adjust this or that, nor fighting the video drivers, or deal with the bizarre and random speed degradation that my ThinkPad suffered For three weeks every system works. After six months every system breaks. Even Windows 10 and Mac OSX developed various strange bugs (or annoying idiosyncrasies) after few months of my use.
- Piskvorrr 11y ago
  You seem to be doing something strange. The (Linux,Windows,Android) systems under my control (mine+family) seem to be working rather well for years, without any special sauce on my part, or the users'.
  - scotty79 11y ago
    I don't do anything beyond installing, uninstalling and upgrading software. I don't tamper with the system itself, don't use any automatic system cleaners, decrapifiers and such. For example my Windows 10 now got stuck on some system upgrade and periodically informs me about that with fullscreen message box and sound gets stuck for fraction of a second from time to time when I watch movies and games I'm playing get stuck from time to time for few seconds when I'm running them from one SSD but not the other. My Mac OSX gets stuck on accessing network share and refuses to continue until I restart finder, also prefers WiFi when cable connection is available despite wifi being lower on "set service order". Haven't run Linux for last few years as a main system but I'd surely find some stuff that stopped working after few months or in some circumstances.
carlsborg 11y ago
Its a great dev desktop.
crncosta 11y ago
I am using Debian as my main desktop (laptop in this case) for the last 8 years... sure I am not the only one. I have suspend/hibernate, great Gnome experience, no issues to run presentations or use public printers, really stable and very fast experience, and I did not configure any system aspect to make it work, just installed the distribution and that works out of box. Well, I am very happy with Linux desktop. Just presenting a contra-example :)
- yitchelle 11y ago
  What laptop are you using to get such great compatibility match?
  - secstate 11y ago
    I'm not the parent, but I have the same experience with Ubuntu 15.10 on a Lenovo T440s. And I know, I know, Lenovo and their spyware are awful. All the more reason to dump their stock Windows install for linux ;)
  - suvelx 11y ago
    I bought the new Dell Precision 5510 (Business version of the new XPS 15) this week. With a 4.4 kernel, Everything seems to work more-or-less fine. There's one or two issues with the graphics stack (HiDPI display, Nvidia Card), but these have workable solutions. Heck, my last laptop (Sony Vaio Z), more-or-less worked too. I think you've just got to follow one rule: Intel, Intel, Intel.
    - dagw 11y ago
      "more-or-less worked" is the story of my 15+ year history with Linux as a desktop. Unfortunately these is always one or two small but important thing which doesn't quite work which always eventually sends me back to windows/OS X.
      - secstate 11y ago
        Not trying to troll here, but in my experience this is true as well. You know what the culprit usually is? PULSEAUDIO ... oh my. I appreciate that audio is a complex solution, but it seems that even suspend issues often come back to, "oh, well pulseaudio isn't letting it ..." sigh
restalis 11y ago
"Android contains the only Linux component - the kernel" Well, only the kernel IS actually Linux. A Linux-kernel based *nix OS in itself, which is usually wrongly assumed as Linux, is not in fact Linux (or not quite). In this regard Android is just like a lot of other Linux-kernel based distributions, no mater that it runs on an older/modified kernel.
- mojuba 11y ago
  That's not entirely correct. Linux kernel is Linux kernel; what we call "Linux" usually also includes the GNU userland. And then there are "Linux flavours" that only differ in the way they screw up packaging and updates of the kernel and the userland.
  - teddyh 11y ago
    What you call “flavors”, most people call “distributions”. And you are wrong; “Linux” is the name of the kernel.
borkur 11y ago
I've been running Linux Mint on my private desktop exclusively for 3 years, and Ubuntu for one year on my laptop (HP EliteBook 8530p). I use Windows 7 at work. The only thing I miss from Linux is MS Excel.
Shorel 11y ago
Based on the number of issues I've had with either OS, Windows 10 is much less ready for desktop than Ubuntu. In fact, using Windows 8.1 or 10 I can't get 1080p video over HDMI without screen tearing. With Ubuntu, I can.
forbin_meet_hal 11y ago
I use Linux at home and I managed to sneak a Linux box into work, contra-policy. I realize I'm in the tiniest of market segments. But the recurring "linux-on-the-desktop" discussion is inane. Are we back to the whole Lindows/Linspire circlejerk of a decade ago? Linux has won the battles that matter: mobile/embedded and supercomputing. The goal of Linux dominating on the desktop simply doesn't matter as much anymore.
sliken 11y ago
Chromebooks don't count?

21 points by maximveksler 11y ago

I'm not sure it's even "ready for the server". I have a server without a monitor I'd like to VNC to. Unfortunately X doesn't start without a physical monitor plugged in because it uses it for autodetection. It's such a silly problem that you can even buy fake "monitor" dongles to plug in to trick X into thinking that there is one. I don't feel like spending money on a software problem so I followed the standard workaround - create a static xorg.conf file. This is very suboptimal because what happens if I later plug in a real monitor? Ok so now X starts. Sort of. Actually lightdm starts and I still can't get X11vnc to connect to the `:0` display. Apparently there is a workaround involving the MIT magic cookie but at this point I've given up. In fact does X even support monitor hot-plugging? Oh and also, if the wifi connection goes down and X isn't running it doesn't automatically reconnect! Wtf? I assume this is because the thing that does the reconnecting is a GUI tool of some sort. Madness.

phireal 11y ago
All that sounds more like PEBKAC than anything else. I've had multiple VNC servers running on headless machines for longer than I can remember. Using x11vnc to connect to a VNC server is like SSHing into localhost instead of just opening up a terminal. You're approaching the task the wrong way around. Wifi not reconnecting sounds like your system has a graphical widget handling the network connections. No X = no graphical programs = no network connections.
exDM69 11y ago
> In fact does X even support monitor hot-plugging? Yes, it does. It's called XRandR. Not sure how your desktop system handles it, is there a pretty graphical widget or how you configure it, I don't use a desktop GUI, I set it up with the xrandr command line tool (which is more easily repeatable than a GUI, albeit less discoverable). > I assume this is because the thing that does the reconnecting is a GUI tool of some sort. You're probably using network-manager, which is a graphical widget in Gnome (KDE has something similar). There are other methods of setting up Wifi (I use wifi-menu on Arch Linux).
laumars 11y ago
In fairness to Linux, you're not actually building a "server" there. A typical server would be running on over ethernet rather than WiFi and on server board with support for remote management (eg IPMI or iLO) which would have mitigated the VNC issues you were having (though anecdotally I've never had any problems running X + VNC on a headless Linux box on the rare occasions I've needed to) But arguments about VNC aside, the vast majority of the time you don't want nor need a GUI running on a server to begin with. Aside maybe some game servers, any Linux server daemon is command line configurable so you're better off saving your RAM and managing your server via SSH (or better yet, Vagrant / Puppet / equivalent) In my experience, Linux is actually very good on servers. But by this I mean "proper" servers. Personally I'd still rather run FreeBSD, but many of the same arguments for and against Linux are applicable for FreeBSD as well.
- IshKebab 11y ago
  Who says a server can't use wifi? A server is just a computer that primarily provides services to other computers. And who says I don't want to run a GUI? I don't live in the 70s.
teddyh 11y ago
> I have a server without a monitor I'd like to VNC to. That’s your problem right there. You can’t (or, rather, don’t) “VNC” to Unix servers. For normal remote access, you use SSH. If you really need to run a graphical X program continuously on a server, you run a virtual X server program like “Xvfb”, and point your graphical X program to that. You can then “VNC” all you like to this virtual X server. All without a monitor or even a graphics card or a mouse on the actual server. This thinking – the idea that a server has something one can refer to as “the” screen, or “the” mouse – is completely and utterly wrong, and betrays a thinking born from Microsoft Windows and other desktop-only-oriented operating systems.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  Microsoft is going to ship a headless version of Windows Server: https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt126167.aspx https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/mt126167.aspx
  - osullivj 11y ago
    I had a play with the headless Windows 2016 TP3 on Azure late last year and blogged my experience here [1]. You can even run GUI programs on it; I found it useful to run Sys Internals Process Explorer to track what was really happening with the Containers. Obviously there's no desktop with file explorer etc. [1] https://etrading.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/windows-containers/ https://etrading.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/windows-containers...
  - teddyh 11y ago
    The problem is that all server software written with Windows in mind already assume that their interface is a screen and a mouse, and will try to create a main window, dock icon, and show popups when something happens. How will they work on a headless Windows server?
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      Confused: remote desktop makes any server not headless.

sigsergv 11y ago

Most of points there make sense for power users only. If you need just basic internet station (no gaming, professional video/audio editing etc) then linux works almost perfectly.

mojuba 11y ago
Any OS is good for a "basic internet station". Today, a school-age hacker can probably hack together a rudimentary desktop OS for running Chrome and Firefox with no advanced audio/video codecs. But Linux is no school project, in fact as an OS it's almost as mature as Windows in terms of their age. And we all know Linux is quite good, almost unbeatable on the server side. But for the desktop side, there is no excuse for not having your video, audio and networking sorted and polished to death. Improving your battery life or saving internet traffic while on cellular data is not "professional video/audio", it has become pretty much standard computer experience today.
- downtide 11y ago
  I've a HP Windows 8.1 machine, added an Intel wireless card with Bluetooth. Bluetooth pretty much disappears after a suspend. And networking can sometimes die and only recover after a reboot. The control panels/diagnostics for both networking and bluetooth are also really sucky (and admin in general on 8.1 is pretty horrible). So don't be under the illusion that Windows is any better. Bluetooth, how it works, how to use it on Linux is also an Enigma. And that's been patchy on my Thinkpad, but I haven't had that much of a joyous experience using Bluetooth on any device. In short: 'they' could all try harder.
  - mojuba 11y ago
    Well, to be fair Bluetooth itself is incredibly difficult to deal with on all levels, just like any other committee-driven thing out there. It's a mess that I doubt can ever be fixed. As for WiFi, my experience with Apple devices is mostly positive, or definitely better than on any other platform. So WiFi is quite possible to get right.

humanrebar 11y ago

ChromeOS uses the Linux kernel and works rather well. There is a paragraph dismissing Android as a desktop OS, but ChromeOS (including the Chromebox) is very close to a classic desktop experience, especially if you consider typical consumer use cases.

bmn_ 11y ago

This is a re-submission. Previous discussions: • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812214 (368 comments) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10757785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10757785 (2 comments) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=616146 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=616146

xlm1717 11y ago
Interesting how people editorialize the title.
- dang 11y ago
  That's against the site rules, which ask people to use the original title unless it is misleading or linkbait. Submitters: note how that does not say "add more linkbait". https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

onli 11y ago

dang, the title is editorialized (and in bad taste). It was discussed a few days ago with a lots of comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812214 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10812214

scotty79 11y ago

> Computing-wise that three week vacation turned out to be very relaxing. Machine would suspend and resume without problem, Wi-Fi just worked, audio did not stop working, I spend three weeks without having to recompile the kernel to adjust this or that, nor fighting the video drivers, or deal with the bizarre and random speed degradation that my ThinkPad suffered For three weeks every system works. After six months every system breaks. Even Windows 10 and Mac OSX developed various strange bugs (or annoying idiosyncrasies) after few months of my use.

Piskvorrr 11y ago
You seem to be doing something strange. The (Linux,Windows,Android) systems under my control (mine+family) seem to be working rather well for years, without any special sauce on my part, or the users'.
- scotty79 11y ago
  I don't do anything beyond installing, uninstalling and upgrading software. I don't tamper with the system itself, don't use any automatic system cleaners, decrapifiers and such. For example my Windows 10 now got stuck on some system upgrade and periodically informs me about that with fullscreen message box and sound gets stuck for fraction of a second from time to time when I watch movies and games I'm playing get stuck from time to time for few seconds when I'm running them from one SSD but not the other. My Mac OSX gets stuck on accessing network share and refuses to continue until I restart finder, also prefers WiFi when cable connection is available despite wifi being lower on "set service order". Haven't run Linux for last few years as a main system but I'd surely find some stuff that stopped working after few months or in some circumstances.

carlsborg 11y ago

Its a great dev desktop.

crncosta 11y ago

I am using Debian as my main desktop (laptop in this case) for the last 8 years... sure I am not the only one. I have suspend/hibernate, great Gnome experience, no issues to run presentations or use public printers, really stable and very fast experience, and I did not configure any system aspect to make it work, just installed the distribution and that works out of box. Well, I am very happy with Linux desktop. Just presenting a contra-example :)

yitchelle 11y ago
What laptop are you using to get such great compatibility match?
- secstate 11y ago
  I'm not the parent, but I have the same experience with Ubuntu 15.10 on a Lenovo T440s. And I know, I know, Lenovo and their spyware are awful. All the more reason to dump their stock Windows install for linux ;)
- suvelx 11y ago
  I bought the new Dell Precision 5510 (Business version of the new XPS 15) this week. With a 4.4 kernel, Everything seems to work more-or-less fine. There's one or two issues with the graphics stack (HiDPI display, Nvidia Card), but these have workable solutions. Heck, my last laptop (Sony Vaio Z), more-or-less worked too. I think you've just got to follow one rule: Intel, Intel, Intel.
  - dagw 11y ago
    "more-or-less worked" is the story of my 15+ year history with Linux as a desktop. Unfortunately these is always one or two small but important thing which doesn't quite work which always eventually sends me back to windows/OS X.
    - secstate 11y ago
      Not trying to troll here, but in my experience this is true as well. You know what the culprit usually is? PULSEAUDIO ... oh my. I appreciate that audio is a complex solution, but it seems that even suspend issues often come back to, "oh, well pulseaudio isn't letting it ..." sigh

restalis 11y ago

"Android contains the only Linux component - the kernel" Well, only the kernel IS actually Linux. A Linux-kernel based *nix OS in itself, which is usually wrongly assumed as Linux, is not in fact Linux (or not quite). In this regard Android is just like a lot of other Linux-kernel based distributions, no mater that it runs on an older/modified kernel.

mojuba 11y ago
That's not entirely correct. Linux kernel is Linux kernel; what we call "Linux" usually also includes the GNU userland. And then there are "Linux flavours" that only differ in the way they screw up packaging and updates of the kernel and the userland.
- teddyh 11y ago
  What you call “flavors”, most people call “distributions”. And you are wrong; “Linux” is the name of the kernel.

borkur 11y ago

I've been running Linux Mint on my private desktop exclusively for 3 years, and Ubuntu for one year on my laptop (HP EliteBook 8530p). I use Windows 7 at work. The only thing I miss from Linux is MS Excel.

Shorel 11y ago

Based on the number of issues I've had with either OS, Windows 10 is much less ready for desktop than Ubuntu. In fact, using Windows 8.1 or 10 I can't get 1080p video over HDMI without screen tearing. With Ubuntu, I can.

forbin_meet_hal 11y ago

I use Linux at home and I managed to sneak a Linux box into work, contra-policy. I realize I'm in the tiniest of market segments. But the recurring "linux-on-the-desktop" discussion is inane. Are we back to the whole Lindows/Linspire circlejerk of a decade ago? Linux has won the battles that matter: mobile/embedded and supercomputing. The goal of Linux dominating on the desktop simply doesn't matter as much anymore.

sliken 11y ago

Chromebooks don't count?