11 ms·

It's the isolating arm of capitalism drilling its elbow grease directly into your personal life.

by imbellish 11y ago

beedogs 11y ago
We can't be too far off from a China-style 'citizen credit rating' kind of system.
- rms_returns 11y ago
  It already happens unofficially. How do you think banks assess your lending/borrowing habits when you apply for a loan? There are detective agencies who track credit cards and other things (like a few examples someone gave in this very thread).
  - pdkl95 11y ago
    There is a huge difference between a "private" rating system and a public rating that uses your friends against you as manipulation. See Extra Credit's description[1] of how this works. We aren't there yet, but consider that Facebook wants to use your social network associations in your credit score[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/facebooks-new-patent-and-digital-redlining/407287/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/facebo...
    - krick 11y ago
      Jesus. If that first video is true, then that's what should be top-upvoted submission on HN. Why isn't it better known? I mean, at least I personally never heard about it and I might be not the most informed person on the Internet, but certainly I'm not the least. And this is much more important thing to know than… well, everything I usually hear on the news. I don't get often surprised by all that dystopian stuff, because I assume we already are quite fucked, but this one did surprise me. That's just crazy.
      - pdkl95 11y ago
        That video has been submitted numerous times, but it never got any attention. To be clear, I believe there is some disagreement as if this is one or multiple programs in China, but that doesn't really matter; we need to defend against the establishment of this kind of program regardless. The trick where positive reinforcement is used to trick people into wanting to participate is utterly terrifying... because it will work. It's obvious that it will work, because it is effectively the weaponization of "high school clique"-style tribalism and carefully re-framed self interest.
        guscost 11y ago
        For some perspective, the weaponization of cliques and "othering" is very old, and it has worked for just as long. We call it politics. But a state sponsored gamified social network where the incentives are all designed by the ruling class, and the penalties have the force of law, is pretty darn awful. Hopefully the affected citizens prove to be as unpredictable and hard to control as others have in the past, because that's really their only hope.
      - joveian 11y ago
        It looks like it is starting to get some attention at least. Here is HN discussion of the article that seems possibly the primary source for the video: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10329733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10329733 It sounds like the system does not currently use politics and such, but the government would like to combine it with the existing citizen tracking system which is employer based. And a BBC article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186 I think the US system is fairly insidious as well and has more government influence than it might seem (look into "redlining" for instance and the role the government played). Creditors can know quite a bit about your private life (particularly if you significantly outside the mainstream) and I don't think it is that uncommon for individuals to share credit scores. In any case, I think it is worth considering how "social trust systems" work everywhere and not just in the worst imagininable case. It is harder to think about in the less obviously centralized cases.
    - arethuza 11y ago
      Thanks - that is a really good video - I had heard about that scheme but I hadn't thought about the implications for an entire society of using gamification in that way.
  - sampo 11y ago
    > It already happens unofficially. European living in the US here. How do these systems assess recent immigrants who have no credit history in the US?
    - bgribble 11y ago
      You're a "ghost". Your FICO credit score will probably be pretty OK (in the 600s) if you have no derogatory credit, but with no (US) history of high credit, and no established history of attachment to your job and address, any loan analyst worth their salary will be skeptical. You will probably have to pay a rate premium unless you go through a lender such as a credit union that you have an existing relationship with. Your provable income will be your biggest asset. As a non-US citizen, it makes sense that you will be perceived as a higher risk of absconding since you could leave the country permanently at any time.
    - tombrossman 11y ago
      American living in Europe here. In some ways, having no credit history is worse than having bad credit. For example, when I signed up for my first 'post-paid' mobile contract, I had to put a much larger deposit down than my friends with bad credit did. Theirs was about $500 and mine was $1000. Look at ways to establish at least some credit history sooner rather than later, as this will make things easier in the future. For example, even if you do not need a store credit card, you might get one and charge routine purchases and pay the full about each month. This avoids any extra costs and builds credit history.
benevol 11y ago
Now think about what a company like Google or Facebook knows about you. And then ask yourself if you ever want to use their services again (besides those that everybody is forced to "use", such as GoogleAnalytics.).
- Jgrubb 11y ago
  FYI, Facebook buys CC purchase info about you from these companies as well in order to be able to sell more targeted ads.
- leni536 11y ago
  Well, I block GoogleAnalytics with uBlock and uMatrix.
  - JupiterMoon 11y ago
    Unfortunately people have started putting the tracking server side.
    - krick 11y ago
      You mean GoogleAnalytics-tracking on the server side? Please expand on that, I'm not very versed in all that marketing spy-modules. Do you mean that some internet-shop (or blog or whatever) makes a request to GA or some similar service to share that I was at their website? If so, what information do they share? My IP, cookies or what? I always assumed that very point of GA was outsourcing tracking users to some other service (Google) which could try somehow guess who I am based on flash-cookies and me appearing on other websites with GA. But how would that work server-side?
      - bsilvereagle 11y ago
        Everytime you access a website a server is serving you files. Apache (and most web servers) keep logs of this. With Apache defaults you get IP address, the route accessed, and the User-Agent of the user. This is rudimentary information, but if you have these logs from multiple sites, it's pretty easy to roughly track someone. Tracking images in emails use this same principle, a unique link to krick.png is put in an email sent to you, and if it gets served by the server (shows up in the access logs) it's pretty reasonable to assume that you read the email. If you want to see a simplified version of what this log looks like, run 'python -m SimpleHTTPServer' and visit localhost:8000.
simonh 11y ago
Because non-capitalist countries have a much better record of protecting and respecting personal privacy. Really? The answers to this are twofold: Better national information security support* and regulation; Consumer action to chose vendors that demonstrate that they value personal privacy and prioritise information security. * Which includes not deliberately, as a matter of policy, undermining security technologies and standards.
- kuschku 11y ago
  The best track record of protecting have Social Market countries. Social Capitalism, also called "Social Democracy", "Nordic Model", "Democratic Socialism", etc is generally the best model. In a pure capitalist model it is okay if Facebook shares all your data with advertisers – if you don’t like Facebook, just vote with your money and go to Google+.
  - simonh 11y ago
    Sure but no country on earth, not even the USA, has anything close to a pure capitalist system in that sense. Furthermore Nordic Model countries vary, but are very much capitalist. From wikipedia: "Sweden's industry is overwhelmingly in private control; unlike some other industrialized Western countries, such as Austria, Italy or Finland, state owned enterprises were always of minor importance." In fact I think I can make a strong argument that capitalism relies on property rights and therefore the rule of law, which tends to support individual rights in general including privacy.
    - kuschku 11y ago
      Yes. Every country is in some way "social", but social market economies focus strongly on keeping a balance. Especially in the US the balance has been skewed since forever towards capitalism. Historically, Social Market Economies evolved in countries where the population was supportive of socialist and communist uprisings, but the ruling class tried to keep the economy, and implemented the same benefits as in a socialist system in the existing market economy (See Bismarck’s Social Welfare model in Germany and the history of Bismarck vs. the Social Democrats on this).

It's the isolating arm of capitalism drilling its elbow grease directly into your personal life.

beedogs 11y ago

We can't be too far off from a China-style 'citizen credit rating' kind of system.

rms_returns 11y ago
It already happens unofficially. How do you think banks assess your lending/borrowing habits when you apply for a loan? There are detective agencies who track credit cards and other things (like a few examples someone gave in this very thread).
- pdkl95 11y ago
  There is a huge difference between a "private" rating system and a public rating that uses your friends against you as manipulation. See Extra Credit's description[1] of how this works. We aren't there yet, but consider that Facebook wants to use your social network associations in your credit score[2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHcTKWiZ8sI [2] http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/facebooks-new-patent-and-digital-redlining/407287/ http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/09/facebo...
  - krick 11y ago
    Jesus. If that first video is true, then that's what should be top-upvoted submission on HN. Why isn't it better known? I mean, at least I personally never heard about it and I might be not the most informed person on the Internet, but certainly I'm not the least. And this is much more important thing to know than… well, everything I usually hear on the news. I don't get often surprised by all that dystopian stuff, because I assume we already are quite fucked, but this one did surprise me. That's just crazy.
    - pdkl95 11y ago
      That video has been submitted numerous times, but it never got any attention. To be clear, I believe there is some disagreement as if this is one or multiple programs in China, but that doesn't really matter; we need to defend against the establishment of this kind of program regardless. The trick where positive reinforcement is used to trick people into wanting to participate is utterly terrifying... because it will work. It's obvious that it will work, because it is effectively the weaponization of "high school clique"-style tribalism and carefully re-framed self interest.
      - guscost 11y ago
        For some perspective, the weaponization of cliques and "othering" is very old, and it has worked for just as long. We call it politics. But a state sponsored gamified social network where the incentives are all designed by the ruling class, and the penalties have the force of law, is pretty darn awful. Hopefully the affected citizens prove to be as unpredictable and hard to control as others have in the past, because that's really their only hope.
    - joveian 11y ago
      It looks like it is starting to get some attention at least. Here is HN discussion of the article that seems possibly the primary source for the video: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10329733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10329733 It sounds like the system does not currently use politics and such, but the government would like to combine it with the existing citizen tracking system which is employer based. And a BBC article: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186 I think the US system is fairly insidious as well and has more government influence than it might seem (look into "redlining" for instance and the role the government played). Creditors can know quite a bit about your private life (particularly if you significantly outside the mainstream) and I don't think it is that uncommon for individuals to share credit scores. In any case, I think it is worth considering how "social trust systems" work everywhere and not just in the worst imagininable case. It is harder to think about in the less obviously centralized cases.
  - arethuza 11y ago
    Thanks - that is a really good video - I had heard about that scheme but I hadn't thought about the implications for an entire society of using gamification in that way.
- sampo 11y ago
  > It already happens unofficially. European living in the US here. How do these systems assess recent immigrants who have no credit history in the US?
  - bgribble 11y ago
    You're a "ghost". Your FICO credit score will probably be pretty OK (in the 600s) if you have no derogatory credit, but with no (US) history of high credit, and no established history of attachment to your job and address, any loan analyst worth their salary will be skeptical. You will probably have to pay a rate premium unless you go through a lender such as a credit union that you have an existing relationship with. Your provable income will be your biggest asset. As a non-US citizen, it makes sense that you will be perceived as a higher risk of absconding since you could leave the country permanently at any time.
  - tombrossman 11y ago
    American living in Europe here. In some ways, having no credit history is worse than having bad credit. For example, when I signed up for my first 'post-paid' mobile contract, I had to put a much larger deposit down than my friends with bad credit did. Theirs was about $500 and mine was $1000. Look at ways to establish at least some credit history sooner rather than later, as this will make things easier in the future. For example, even if you do not need a store credit card, you might get one and charge routine purchases and pay the full about each month. This avoids any extra costs and builds credit history.

benevol 11y ago

Now think about what a company like Google or Facebook knows about you. And then ask yourself if you ever want to use their services again (besides those that everybody is forced to "use", such as GoogleAnalytics.).

Jgrubb 11y ago
FYI, Facebook buys CC purchase info about you from these companies as well in order to be able to sell more targeted ads.
leni536 11y ago
Well, I block GoogleAnalytics with uBlock and uMatrix.
- JupiterMoon 11y ago
  Unfortunately people have started putting the tracking server side.
  - krick 11y ago
    You mean GoogleAnalytics-tracking on the server side? Please expand on that, I'm not very versed in all that marketing spy-modules. Do you mean that some internet-shop (or blog or whatever) makes a request to GA or some similar service to share that I was at their website? If so, what information do they share? My IP, cookies or what? I always assumed that very point of GA was outsourcing tracking users to some other service (Google) which could try somehow guess who I am based on flash-cookies and me appearing on other websites with GA. But how would that work server-side?
    - bsilvereagle 11y ago
      Everytime you access a website a server is serving you files. Apache (and most web servers) keep logs of this. With Apache defaults you get IP address, the route accessed, and the User-Agent of the user. This is rudimentary information, but if you have these logs from multiple sites, it's pretty easy to roughly track someone. Tracking images in emails use this same principle, a unique link to krick.png is put in an email sent to you, and if it gets served by the server (shows up in the access logs) it's pretty reasonable to assume that you read the email. If you want to see a simplified version of what this log looks like, run 'python -m SimpleHTTPServer' and visit localhost:8000.

simonh 11y ago

Because non-capitalist countries have a much better record of protecting and respecting personal privacy. Really? The answers to this are twofold: Better national information security support* and regulation; Consumer action to chose vendors that demonstrate that they value personal privacy and prioritise information security. * Which includes not deliberately, as a matter of policy, undermining security technologies and standards.

kuschku 11y ago
The best track record of protecting have Social Market countries. Social Capitalism, also called "Social Democracy", "Nordic Model", "Democratic Socialism", etc is generally the best model. In a pure capitalist model it is okay if Facebook shares all your data with advertisers – if you don’t like Facebook, just vote with your money and go to Google+.
- simonh 11y ago
  Sure but no country on earth, not even the USA, has anything close to a pure capitalist system in that sense. Furthermore Nordic Model countries vary, but are very much capitalist. From wikipedia: "Sweden's industry is overwhelmingly in private control; unlike some other industrialized Western countries, such as Austria, Italy or Finland, state owned enterprises were always of minor importance." In fact I think I can make a strong argument that capitalism relies on property rights and therefore the rule of law, which tends to support individual rights in general including privacy.
  - kuschku 11y ago
    Yes. Every country is in some way "social", but social market economies focus strongly on keeping a balance. Especially in the US the balance has been skewed since forever towards capitalism. Historically, Social Market Economies evolved in countries where the population was supportive of socialist and communist uprisings, but the ruling class tried to keep the economy, and implemented the same benefits as in a socialist system in the existing market economy (See Bismarck’s Social Welfare model in Germany and the history of Bismarck vs. the Social Democrats on this).