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Uber’s No-Holds-Barred Expansion Strategy Fizzles in Germany

• Tomte 11y ago
  You can make as much fun as you want about Germans not setting foot on the lawn because it's verboten, but law (and order) is really a thing here. When a company openly breaks the law (and is even smug enough to brag about it), most of the people take a strong dislike to it. Intentionally breaking the law, in order to quickly get too big too punish seems to work in the US sometimes, because "evil government". In Europe you're in for a lot of trouble, because "evil corporation".
• Tomte 11y ago
  Another thing I'd like to point out: "The company has argued it can add thousands of new jobs to Germany if it is allowed to operate freely" Since the social net is still pretty strong, there is maybe less pressure to add jobs no matter the cost. And we as a society need to talk about which jobs are even worth existing. I'm not saying that Uber driver is necessarily a bad job, but "because jobs" is only one important part of the argument. The other parts are "what kind of job?", "what wages?", "what kinds of externalities?", sometimes even human dignity.
  • DasIch 11y ago
    I'd also question how Uber defines job here. Something tells me those thousands of jobs they're thinking of might not be full-time jobs providing a wage you can live on.
    • kuschku 11y ago
      Even more interestingly: Has someone sued Uber regarding the Scheinselbstständigkeit of their jobs yet?
      • _ak 11y ago
        I don't know how current this information is, but the few times I used Uber, I got regular taxis. That was in Berlin a few months ago. So at least during that time, Uber was yet another taxi app, with no USP at all.
• cabinpark 11y ago
  It doesn't surprise me in the least. Germany is a country of insane regulations and rules. They absolutely love paperwork - all the Germans apologized to me when I first moved here and set everything up - and have a very strict way of operating. The American way of doing things, as the article briefly mentions, is very different. I'm not saying it is better or worse, just different. This is a cultural thing that doesn't magically change overnight. I know I still get annoyed at how different things are sometimes compared with back in North America, but that is the way things operate here and you have to learn to play the game otherwise you will lose. The credit card thing is also true too. Cash is king here and I routinely see people with hundreds of Euros of cash like it is nothing. I always see people paying for groceries with 100 Euro notes. Furthermore, I know Germans are much more concerned with personal security and privacy that there is also going to be a push back about having to share personal information with an American company. Also I live in Frankfurt, and, to be honest, I have no idea why people even use taxis. To get from the Hauptbahnhof to practically anywhere in the city is only a < 20 minute U-Bahn ride. Also, the public transportation in Europe tends to be insanely good and efficient so a ride-sharing app will also have to compete with this as well.
  • kuschku 11y ago
    And then the taxi companies actually provide a neat app which tells you how much the ride will cost, and allows you to book from your phone directly in Germany (taxi.eu). It’s hard to justify uber when they have the same comfort, same prices, but treat employees worse, and refuse to operate within the same laws. Uber only has advantages in the areas where they can provide cheaper prices, and they often can only provide these by breaking rules (like the insurance in the beginning) or by mistreating employees (which they classify as "subcontractors". This Scheinselbstständigkeit is going to lead to legal issues for uber in the future, too). And, additionally, while local taxi companies can operate on small margins – and the profit ends up back in the local economy – Uber has investors at Wall Street to please, and their profit ends up in New York, not in the local economies.
  • sandworm101 11y ago
    Really? I've helped a couple european companies setup US operations and they all complain about the over-regulated and bureaucratic approach in the US. They find tax and immigration paperwork, and I mean literal PAPERwork, very unsettling.
• Mithaldu 11y ago
  The main reason Uber is flopping hard in Germany: http://www.taxi.eu/en/ http://www.taxi.eu/en/ It's been around since ca. 2011 and for the passenger side offers the same ease-of-use as Uber does, but results in rides with real taxis along with all the protections, insurances and guarantees they involve. For no extra cost.
  • kuschku 11y ago
    And this is what kills uber: Their only advantage in Germany is price. But they can only offer that advantage by breaking the rules. And breaking the rules in Germany is one of the most stupid things you can do, as people will end up refusing to use your service due to that.
    • socialist_coder 11y ago
      And all the German rules make sense, right? None of the rules could possibly be inefficient or written decades ago for a system that has since evolved?
      • Mithaldu 11y ago
        I don't know that all of the german taxi rules make sense, but compared to what i've seen in the USA the german taxi system works amazingly well, leaves passengers well-protected and from talks with the drivers, them happy.
        • socialist_coder 11y ago
          Still pretty expensive though, IMO. I never use them here in Berlin unless I have to catch a 7 AM flight with my 2 kids. But of course a valid alternative exists here in Berlin (public transport), which is absent in the US. The taxis in Germany are definitely cleaner and more maintained. But man, I just wish there was some kind of cheaper option.
          • kuschku 11y ago
• DasIch 11y ago
  The only thing Uber has a problem with is encouraging people to play taxi with their private car using private insurance. That's not allowed for very good reason, the other services they offer work fine. The taxi market is heavily but well regulated. As a consumer Uber offers no improvement apart from potentially temporarily lower prices in the short term.
• sjm 11y ago
  There are a lot of reasons why Uber doesn't really work in Germany, most of them listed here already. One I'd like to add is, at least from my experience in Berlin, taxis here are already what you'd get by paying the premium for "Uber Black" — Mercedes E-Class, super clean, super comfortable, driven by professionals and not very expensive. This is a world of difference from, say, Australia, where the taxis are dirty, unsafe, and driven by a workforce that has a big stimulant drug-use problem (of course this is a generalisation, but I've caught enough taxis in Australia to come across all of this a few times, and it's certainly not uncommon). In other words, there are places like Australia that desperately need Uber and the competition it brings to taxi companies. Germany doesn't have this need, and Uber doesn't bring much to the table compared to what is already available.
  • mckee1 11y ago
    I was in Berlin earlier last year and I was surprised at just how excellent the taxi's were, especially in comparison to the UK. As you say, all clean, high quality cars.
    • jtzhou 11y ago
      Ditto, was in Berlin recently and was very impressed by the taxi service. The taxi driver slowed down and asked us if we needed a ride, was patient when we got out our address on our phones for the AirBnB, and even suggested a faster route. He gave us a detailed explanation of the cultural sites in the area. €11.80 to take two people with 4 luggage bags about 5 kilometers.
  • drpgq 11y ago
    I split my time between Saxony and Ontario and the German taxis are in far better condition and the drivers way better.
  • socialist_coder 11y ago
    "not very expensive"? - they are the same price as taxis in the US. I think most people would consider them expensive. Personally, I would love to pay a cheaper price for a less comfortable trip. I don't need to ride in a freshly washed 2012 Mercedes E-class.
• Derbasti 11y ago
  Just a remark on credit cards in Europe: yes, they are less common than in the US. However, this is mostly because Europeans use "EC cards" instead, which mostly work like debit cards except that they are issued by the banks themselves without an intermediary like Visa or Mastercard.
  • deleted 11y ago
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  • halomru 11y ago
    From my experience most Germans don't own a credit card. Everybody owns a EC card (since it's your normal bank card) but most people only use them if circumstances prevented them from carrying sufficient cash (unplanned big purchase etc). Card use is on the rise, but it's far from the norm
  • hocuspocus 11y ago
    Do you realize that EC cards are either Maestro (MasterCard) or V pay (VISA)? Also you shouldn't make generalization about "Europe", payment habits vary greatly between neighboring countries (Germans' love for cash baffles me and most my non-German coworkers).
• yolandakm 11y ago
  Taxis in Germany are just different. From someone who has lived in both SF and Berlin recently, here is the summary: Berlin: almost all taxis are Mercedes E-Class. super clean, drivers are very friendly, interesting to talk to, seem educated. they drive calmly and professionally. the experience makes you feel good and I always tip generously. SF: taxis are nasty. I don't want to touch anything inside the car, the seats are covered in plastic "puke" covers, the seat belts are hard to use, the driver claims he does not take credit cards even though he has a credit card machine. he might refuse to take you to certain areas, just cause. sometimes the drivers themselves are dirty, they smell like they haven't showered in a week, they are eating while driving. the car smells like pot or cigarette smoke. I feel bad for the drivers, they look like they are just barely getting by, and they are often angry and drive extremely aggressively. I guess when you are just scraping by financially as a taxi driver in SF, every second counts. I'm always surprised we didn't get into an accident.
  • mpeg 11y ago
    That's just Berlin, not Germany. In smaller cities, you'll wish you had Uber. Most taxis speak little english (hard to communicate where you're going without just handing them your phone with the address in it), they don't always take card or like doing so (I had a guy who after mumbling something nasty used a manual imprinter on my card) and have generally given me bad service. Never had those issues with Uber when it was available in more places. I've moved to using Blacklane whenever I can, but they're worse than Uber.
    • halomru 11y ago
      But those are only problems foreigners have with German taxis. Germans prefer paying with cash and don't care if the driver speaks good English. As a German the only bad experience I have ever had with a taxi was a driver taking the long way around. Apart from that our taxi services are great for Germans. Of course the experience for foreigners is important, but it will neither make not brake any taxi company.
    • mschuster91 11y ago
      > they don't always take card or like doing s Don't blame the taxi drivers, it's widely known that Germans don't like cash-less payments, and much less credit cards. Partially because of surveillance and partially because unlike the US, you have to have excellent credit reports to get a true CC and not prepaid/debit CCs.
• soyiuz 11y ago
  I've said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again: Uber's endgame is not in the disruption of the taxi industry. They are really a logistics company. Once the regulations catch up with them, they will be providing a logistics service for taxis (and possibly for trucking and deliveries). They are disrupting the antiquated software / infrastructure involved in the dispatching and operations of taxis. The initial competition with taxis is a temporary way of forcing them to adopt the new software / infrastructure. In Germany the logistics of taxi management are already far beyond what we see in the US. The value proposition is lower for both rider and driver. It would be interesting to learn about the companies involved in that market. (Who makes the dispatching radios, software vendors, profit margins, etc.)
  • mootothemax 11y ago
    >I've said it elsewhere, but I'll say it again: Uber's endgame is not in the disruption of the taxi industry. On my more cynical days, I've convinced myself that their true endgame is an Enron-sized fraud. Somewhat unfair... and yet.
  • oniMaker 11y ago
    Uber's endgame is to roll out globally with an attractive platform for users and an enticing offer for drivers, gain a dominant market share in as many markets as possible, then steadily replace all human drivers with self-driving cars. This will happen over the next several decades. At that point, the company will maintain service centers for their fleets, whose maintenance costs will be low enough to significantly increase their profit margins. Those larger profits will, of course, flow to the relatively small number of shareholders instead of being distributed among a larger human workforce, as they are currently. Listen to Peter Thiel. The endgame for superlative companies is monopoly.
    • kuschku 11y ago
      And in Germany, where some of the largest Taxi dispatch services are already owned by the car manufacturers (Mercedes has a majority share in MyTaxi, for example), this is also possible – and without Uber ever being able to compete, as they can never be as cheap as a car manufacturer doing everything, from every bolt and screw to the taxi in-house.
• deleted 11y ago
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